Let's talk about "commonly accepted" roast profiles

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
The French Dude

Postby The French Dude » Jan 11, 2019, 2:31 pm

Hi, I am pretty new as roaster.
I read some books (Rao, Hoos), some blogs, articles, forum etc...
The mainstream is declining ROR style roast.
Sometimes your can read that it is not the only way to roast but anyone state what is "commonly accepted" as roast profile.
I actually like city roast, full city and even full city+
But I have to admit I can't get a Rao style profile when darker roast. I go 30 or even 35% dev.
Do I do something wrong?

Please help...

Thx

Aguirre

Postby Aguirre » Jan 11, 2019, 3:17 pm

The French Dude wrote:But I have to admit I can't get a Rao style profile when darker roast. I go 30 or even 35% dev.
Do I do something wrong?


Short answer: If you want to go beyond 25%, then you're not anymore in the "Rao style"

The long answer can be really really long, but in summary (and then here this is my opinion), when you get to that region, 30% and beyond, you are already burning the coffee and the darker you go, everything will just taste the same (burnt), not really mattering how you got there.

The French Dude

Postby The French Dude » replying to Aguirre » Jan 11, 2019, 3:25 pm

So is there a way to get a full city+ at 25% dev max?
Or once you go darker you definitively pass the 25% milestone?

OldmatefromOZ

Postby OldmatefromOZ » Jan 11, 2019, 3:37 pm

Just need to roast a little longer / less aggressive overall.
Charge lower, aim for 13.5 to 14min total roast time.
Its possible to have overall smooth decline ROR for entire roast and hit cusp or just starting 2nd crack 23 to 25% DTR.
If done right it smashes any shorter more aggressive darker roasts for taste, depending on machine and what one enjoys in a cup.

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Almico

Postby Almico » Jan 11, 2019, 4:57 pm

You need a less sloped declining RoR curve to get within 25% on shorter roasts.

On long roasts it's easy. For example on a 16 minute roast you only need to hit 2C within 4 minutes of 1C.

Even Scott says the 20-25% is a guide and not carved in stone.

The French Dude

Postby The French Dude » Jan 11, 2019, 5:09 pm

Almico wrote:Even Scott says the 20-25% is a guide and not carved in stone.


That's true but the thing is everybody is acting like there is just rao style roasting.

And nobody assume the different ways to do...

So when you are new in roasting world you can't know what's would be acceptable or not...

And there is the subbject here :D

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Almico

Postby Almico » Jan 11, 2019, 5:23 pm

Rao-style roasting is a good way to start. It works for most people, on most coffees, most of the time. What more do you want?

Suggestion: roast and drink a lot of coffee. You'll figure it out. You will not become an expert in 3 weeks, 3 months or 3 years.

badperson

Postby badperson » Jan 11, 2019, 5:36 pm

I have been doing the Rao style thing for a year or so, and get conistently really good results, but also feel like I'm in a bit of a rut. I haven't cupped regularly enough to really taste the subtleties of different profiles, so I haven't experimented as much.

This year want to cup every group of batches I do (usually 4-6 in a roasting session, I use quest m3) and try some different stuff. I've seen people here post graphs where they charge at like 250F, which I want to try. Also so some tests with batch size and other variables.

The French Dude

Postby The French Dude » Jan 11, 2019, 8:41 pm

Almico wrote:What more do you want?


Simply know what's doable or not exept rao things...

Is that a crime?

I don't tell that Rao style doesn't make good coffe or not... I want to know if there is other style that make good coffee!

Thx

OldmatefromOZ

Postby OldmatefromOZ » Jan 11, 2019, 9:42 pm

Search slow start fast finish roast profile and Diedrich roasting.

Get your charge temp, batch size and starting gas so that the roast naturally slows down by itself as the beans start to change from pale green to yellow. BT curve will plateau slightly. Can play around with how long / slow you go through yellow to the start of caramelisation, slowly build momentum so that you hit first crack at 12 to 13 min, drop when desired. Prob want to hit 2nd crack 3 to 3:30 later.

This style is the complete antithesis of anything RAO preaches. If done right it would produce a rich flavored coffee which might be more savoury, full, roasty / robust, depends on a lot of variables.