Boldjava wrote:Just a reminder, tons of variables in here. As I roast on the Gene and another Quest'er chimed in, I clammed up:

• Naturals vs honeys (I find honeys scorch more easily than naturals but that is the Gene)
  Probe placement of rigs
  Probes themselves, size, accuracy, rapidity of reporting temp change
  Bean (pacamara vs others)
  Line voltage in differing homes and resulting heat capacity

Careful about drawing too many conclusions.

Absolutely, I think this was fantastically demonstrated by Rob Hoos in the Roast magazine article...

Given that jammin had a quest, and our BT probe seems to be measuring FC at around the same time (mine is usually around 385, depending upon me waiting for a couple grouped cracks) I think I can do a pretty decent comparison (otherwise, yes, too many variables. Quest m3's usually utilize similar probe sizes given most people reusing the factory screw hole for bt and then bean chute for MET. That said if you can establish how much of a spread there is between first and 2nd, you should be able to do a pretty decent job comparing how much development is actually occuring between machines. My quest hits 2nd crack at around 425ish on my probes - I rarely if ever go there so its hard to tell. Hell, now that I say that, I should take one to 2nd to see exactly when it happens. If I hit FC at 385, that's 40 degrees from FCs which I believe is very typical. I'm guessing jammin's quest would be around the same degree for 2nd. 8 degrees F of development seems very light, given the overall range of FCs to SCs, right? Also, this low level of energy during development would make it nearly impossible to get to 2nd crack in any reasonable amount of time. I've just never gone into FC at that low of ROR, and never dropped that early; doesn't seem to add up. This is going way off topic but oh well lol.... all good discussion.

For clarification my MET probe was placed between the drum & exterior shell; a 1/16" probe TC. If it's in the drum or exhaust I would rather refer to that as ET. In any case, I never had any trouble at all with scorching/tipping through hundreds of lbs of dry processed coffee, mostly Ethiopian.

RE: development. I don't find much is required for pour over/filter roasts. 1:30 is generally the sweet spot and I will adjust based on how the aromas are developing & how the beans are expanding. It's a really fine line of maximizing sweetness & retaining as much origin as possible during development. I won't even try to pretend I have a grip on this for espresso... someday with lots more practice!

Jammin - my MET probe is also 1/16". You said yours was in the 3 o'clock position? Regardless, mine is in 10 or 11 position in one of the screw holes on the bean chute which is between the drum and outer shell. I believe most people place their MET probe where mine is on the quest.

Regarding development, I don't like to think of it as time spent there as that really doesn't tell me anything. I'm interested in degrees from FCs to roast end. Do you at least follow my logic that if FC hits at 385, second hits at 425, logically 393 is not even a city roast - its barely nordic. I just want someone to explain to me how/why that wouldn't be underdeveloped. I should try it just for sh##s. Our goals with our roasts are the same - I want to maximize sweetness and balance it with acidity. Do you have more profiles you could pm me or email me, i really want to see your BT ROR. For what its worth I dont have trouble with any other beans, just this honey processed nicaragua.

Regarding aromas - I know I have sweetness present at 393-395, my brain though says hold up fella, that's too early to drop. That sweet/fruityness stays present for a good bit of time though. I wreckon you don't keep going long after you get the nice sweetness?

I hope you don't think I'm attacking your profile or not taking advice - rather, I'm genuinely VERY curious.

-Joe

I recently roasted my only two batches of a Nicaragua Honey process and ran into the same issue of more development than intended. Even with a 1:30 RD, the development was too much too fast using a small electric drum roaster. The idea of dropping just past the onset of 1C sounds interesting, even though it's outside a normal profile.

Hank - have you ever looked at Royal Coffee's profiles? I know Jen typically roasts on a probat but almost ALL of her roasts have this quite light dev like Jammin is talking about. Completely different roaster, likely with a ton of stored energy but I'd really like to wrap my head around how these type of roasts are properly developed. Edit: I see most of her devs are at around 14-15 degrees. Swear I used to see 8-10. Interestingly, the ikawa roasts are dev temp increases of only 3-5F. Again completely different roaster with different probes but man, crazy.

Joe: Like Jammin I also wait one minute with heat and fan off after charging but using propane in a Huky. Have my Huky modified with 3/4" ceramic material used in the doors of wood stoves. It really retains heat. If I'm roasting in my Gene Cafe this would not work. Not enough power.
My routine is to heat to around 525, then no heat but full fan til machine gets to around 270. Charge with no heat or fan for one minute. Then full heat and 50 fan.
Then treat the roast as if you are roasting small peaberries, extremely delicately.

If roasting for a V60 or aeropress I drop at around 417 degrees which is usually about 45 seconds into first crack. I'm sure your machine would calibrate differently due to probe placement.
To me the above procedure usually brings out max sweetness and preserves floral qualities which is which is my goal.

Joe wrote:

[quote]"Your suggestion about smelling is a good one - I'm surprised how early (into dev) I do smell the sweet smells, I can try dropping early just to see."

Please let us know how this works out for you. I predict you are going to love dropping earlier.

Have learned so much from this thread. It vindicates what has happened to me lately. Was on the phone last week to Vienna Coffee in Maryville TN.
Was shocked when they agreed to drop a Guat Geisha and an Ethiopian Sidamo Amaro Gayo about 80% into first crack. Specifically asked if they would drop at 417. They agreed to do this although the Geisha was only for 8oz and the Amaro Gayo for 12oz. Wish I knew the minimum batch size they had to use.

Boy did they hit it spot on. Both were very light roasts and so sweet and extremely aromatic. Judy even forgave me for the $22.95 paid for 8oz of Geisha.

Gene - If you're dropping at 417, what temp do you hit first crack at? And then you said 45 seconds, so I'll take that into account for calculating the energy (BT ROR).

This whole thing almost makes me want to stop analyzing mathematical factors of energy, and variables like well city roast is FCs + x degrees, or full city is this, etc etc etc. It creates limitations and guard rails that people seem unable to really explain. To do that though, I need to have "markers" for what smells I'm looking for. If it's sweet smell, how soon into that until I drop? Color is a hard variable; although maybe with this honey nicaragua I should look at the silverskin and make sure its not getting dark or charred.

Cup, cup, cup.

jammin wrote:ITry tightening that up by increasing the heat prior to end of drying as I suggested earlier. Tighten that gap up and work yourself up a heat/fan combo to yield a development that suits your palate. If going for drip, about a minute and half should be about the most you need. I'd strongly suggest to use your nose once first crack starts to get a bead on what you can expect in the cup. Error on dropping the roast earlier than later when things start smelling good.

Jammin - I can't thank you enough for making this suggestion of adding good amount of heat AND fan before dry end , I feel like I had been thinking it all along but never tried it, or tried it properly. Or rather, I've been trying to figure out a way to not let energy fall off during maillard. My earlier method of roasting which I arrived upon (high heat high fan), did this, but I got away from it to explore other things. Things I observed today during 4 roasts I did - I actually finally feel like I know how to control the quest (after all sorts of months of trials, mods, etc) - and actually understand the relationship to amps/fan/MET and BT. Sidenote: I'm fully convinced this idea of keeping MET around 500 was another "roasting guardrail" that prevented me from using the quest properly.

I may post profiles later but I've successfully shortened the maillard phase, had plenty of energy going into first crack and dropped earlier than I normally do; hopefully the CUP proves how confident I am in this "profile" and the nice smells and appearance of the finished beans! I also have a theory that carrying excessive MET at the end of the roast on these light roasts (instead of letting it drop off like your profile) made a very conductive roaster, stay too hot at the drum, and potentially overroasted the exterior of the bean; which takes away potential clarity of flavors in a light roast and introduces too much chocolate flavors or worse, bad flavors.