First time roasting honey - Nicaragua Un Regalo Pacamara

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » Jan 12, 2018, 7:59 pm

Hey Friends....

This is actually my first time roasting a honey processed bean (I think). It's this nicaragua from SM's which sounds awesome - https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/nic ... mara-honey

Problem is the silverskin really sticks to the bean and burns SUPER easy. Has anyone roasted this bean? FIrst roast on my quest I guess I went a bit dark to 409, charred marks on the beans and alot of work to get it all off. Brewed up a cup today and the roastyness comes through, likely because of that chaff. Tonight I roasted with a less intensive ramp and very mild dev, with earlier drop - less charred chaf but still too much for my liking. I've never experienced a bean like this. Any tips? Maybe the quest (primarily conductive) just doesn't like this type of bean....

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Boldjava

Postby Boldjava » Jan 12, 2018, 8:16 pm

Charge strikes me as rather high for a honey, assuming the accuracy of the probes. You will easily scorch it at those temps. Just finished froasting a Nica - Pacamara from Bodhi. No scorching/good cup.

As well, I would flatten the curve without lengthening time to 1st crack. Keep it sloping downward so it doesn't bake, but don't lengthen the time to first. Pacamaras are not dense and don't take heat well.

Give adequate time to rest before drinking.
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jammin

Postby jammin » Jan 12, 2018, 8:54 pm

what charge weight are you going with? I agree 400+ is too high.

Try charging about 50* lower & leave the charge door open with the fan off for the 1st minute. Set the elements to appx. where you would have them during the development phase (low). After 1 minute close the door & crank the heat.

dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » Jan 12, 2018, 9:16 pm

Charge weight is 170g for the first try and 150g for the 2nd. These charge temps are very typical for a quest....
Dave - I'm not sure I can charge lower and still have decent dry times. As far as flattening the curve, meaning longer dry and quicker maillard? It's difficult to modulate heat or be flexible on the quest. That's a different roast approach entirely with the quest (which I used to do - see attached example of that) - high heat and high fan. Reason I wouldn't think of doing that with a natural or honey is because I'd think that quick maillard would contribute to tipping and scorching the beans, not the charge. From my experience - I've had tipping on some beans whne I"ve had a fast ramp. I started using this quest roast style to eliminate that

Jammin - fan is totally off till around 280-300 (equivalent of door open). What dry and time to first crack would you expect on a quest? I know you had one - I don't think this is a quick dry? If I crank the heat after 1 minute and don't have the fan cranked, MET will sky rocket. I have a m3s drum and copper pipe (pipe dramatically changed how the quest roasts).


Thanks for both of your comments - I'm going to try the high heat high fan methodology that I used to use, just to see what happens. And/or try the lower charge temp. That said, from my experience, high charge is critical on the quest to establish energy from the start. It doesn't seem to have enough power unless you charge pretty high. Also the quest temp read outs are VERY dependent upon what the specific fan/heat combo is. If I turn the fan from even a modest 3 to 2.5 (which is off on my machine) - met starts rising and BT drops.

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Boldjava

Postby Boldjava » Jan 12, 2018, 9:59 pm

Yeah, Joe, won't be much help beyond that. Only watched a bud roast on the Quest. Do you know what your voltage is? I wonder if your line voltage runs low? I know that made me struggle on the Gene when we lived in Wisconsin. Had to resort to getting an older variac since it ran so low.
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jammin

Postby jammin » Jan 12, 2018, 10:14 pm

dale_cooper wrote:If I crank the heat after 1 minute and don't have the fan cranked, MET will sky rocket.


Crank heat AND fan after 1 minute along with closing the door. I would do this routinely with 227g charges and never had any trouble. I wonder if there is a significant difference between your Quest M3 & the older model I had. Perhaps the thickness of drum may have played a role.

dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » replying to jammin » Jan 12, 2018, 11:16 pm

I'll need to check my logs because I thought I tried that when I was exploring my lower heat no fan dry but I may have missed it and I'm always open to new ideas when roasting so I'm totally going to try it! Just thinking through what you're telling me, it's almost like a hybrid of the styles I've been using and would likely enable me to charge lower but still build energy. Curious though, what was your time to 310ish (dry) and then first crack?

As for the quest. Mine is the mk2, and I'll tell you that with each mod it roasts VERY differently. The copper pipe mod was the biggest difference with MET/BT interaction.

Dave - voltage is good, I have a kill-o-watt. The quest just doesn't have effortless power; it's easier to course correct with the low batch sizes of 125g or less, but still - it's like steering a boat. Because of that, there is a very fine line of how the power and fan interact to create MET and BT changes. All that said, you just gotta test and learn :)


Overall though - are you guys saying lower charge temps for honey processed, and longer dry?

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jammin

Postby jammin » Jan 12, 2018, 11:36 pm

I have to stand corrected on charge temp. I've used way higher on my Quest with great results - and usually with dry processed beans no less. Here is a graph of the last roast I did on it prior to selling it. Density, size & moisture content of the bean are all major players in how they roast - if you're lacking in any of those it could easily contribute to extra roastiness in an otherwise normal looking roast. One thing that jumps out is how long your browning phase is. Try tightening that up by increasing the heat prior to end of drying as I suggested earlier. Tighten that gap up and work yourself up a heat/fan combo to yield a development that suits your palate. If going for drip, about a minute and half should be about the most you need. I'd strongly suggest to use your nose once first crack starts to get a bead on what you can expect in the cup. Error on dropping the roast earlier than later when things start smelling good.


https://i.imgur.com/Z9YchfD.png


edit: your curves are all over the place so I can't say for sure your browning phase is too long. which roast is the worst and which one is getting you closer to goal?

2nd edit: where are you measuring MET? Mine was taken from a 1/16th probe in appx the 3 o'clock position in the outer shell. Very sensitive & accurate to what is pulled into the drum by the fan & what is being applied to the drum.

dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » replying to jammin » Jan 13, 2018, 10:57 am

So, your dry time is as short as mine, and your charge is significantly higher than mine :) The quest is a unique little guy ! You also let MET go quite high which is why you have the energy you do - conventional quest wisdom says you should keep met around 500. My MET is measured at the typical location of one of the screw holes in the bean chute - I think that's 10 o'clock. Can you repost your image and show your BT ROR?

My curves are not all over place; the last graph I posted (which is a different bean) is a completely different roasting style on the quest utilizing high heat and high fan. Sorry you can't blow up the image to see the heat/fan settings and other details where you could see this. I posted it as an example, because I'm pretty sure its what Dave was suggesting - shorter maillard while not really increasing the time to first crack. I've explored going away from this to see how a more gentle maillard and dev would taste in the cup. It seems more friendly to naturals because the aggressive maillard period can promote tipping. I don't feel like tipping has anything to do with a short dry - rather, its an aggressive maillard. The reason I posted this thread is because this nicaraguan bean gets really charred and I'm not even going far into dev. It surprises me becaues I'd think that would be an output of aggressive maillard or dev but I've intentionally kept the energy low.

This is getting way off topic but its valuable to quest owners -
I continue to be surprised by quest graphs with only 7-8 degrees of development from first crack (your graph and I've seen one of TomC's profiles before look like this). Conventional wisdom is that a city roast would be 15-20 degrees of development. Your graph shows 7 and you're going into FC at a VERY low energy level. I would look at your profile and think its very underdeveloped. I've asked others this before and still don't really understand it. When I've roasted on the quest and go into FCs at less than 10F ROR, the cracking is barely there. For what its worth, the profiles posted by royal coffee when they're roasting on their probat show the same very very small increase in temp from FCs to roast end. Logically I just don't understand it. I REALLY want to understand it though. Sidenote - I'm referencing sweet maria's temp charts, and also thinking about where I would hit 2nd crack on the quest and dividing the segments up to get city / city + / full city etc

Your suggestion about smelling is a good one - I'm surprised how early (into dev) I do smell the sweet smells, I can try dropping early just to see.

Thanks again for the dialogue !!!

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Boldjava

Postby Boldjava » Jan 13, 2018, 11:12 am

Just a reminder, tons of variables in here. As I roast on the Gene and another Quest'er chimed in, I clammed up:
    Naturals vs honeys (I find honeys scorch more easily than naturals but that is the Gene)
    Probe placement of rigs
    Probes themselves, size, accuracy, rapidity of reporting temp change
    Bean (pacamara vs others)
    Line voltage in differing homes and resulting heat capacity

Careful about drawing too many conclusions.
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LMWDP #339