Aillio Infrared Bean Temperature Sensor IBTS - Page 2

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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aecletec

Postby aecletec » Jan 19, 2019, 10:24 pm

Other roasters use IR bean probes, i.e. Giesen. This probe is not without noise, so we're still not seeing anything other than adjusted data, something that a metal probe does via analogue to some extent. I don't notice differences in first crack temps based on batch sizes... so maybe this has more to do with their design than others. I would love to hear that this improves roasting but will wait for results.

EddyQ

Postby EddyQ » Jan 19, 2019, 11:24 pm

TomC wrote:There is no more glass in front of the sensor.


I should have read the page more closely. It was the R1 that had germanium glass. The new has a HP air barrier. That seems like a win if robust. I have to hand it to those folks designing this thing. They really seem to be focused on fixing some real problems and not afraid of going outside the box to do it.

I'll try looking through the pages they have on FB. I am curious how they can be certain the IR isn't picking up light from other nearby hot objects. Maybe they found them insignificant. Being an analog engineer, there really is no such thing as zero error. What you measure always has errors. The trick is making them insignificant. Just be be clear that the "true bean temp" that they claim may have other dependencies.

Regardless, the IR likely does reduce lag and perhaps any chance of measuring air temps. But I wonder what wizard software algorithm they are using that doesn't produce lag? Digital filtering lags the same as analog filtering (regardless of processor speed). Another difference from analog, with digital, it can be altered with a firmware update which has its pro's and con's.

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hankua

Postby hankua » Jan 20, 2019, 1:17 am

aecletec wrote:Other roasters use IR bean probes, i.e. Giesen. This probe is not without noise, so we're still not seeing anything other than adjusted data, something that a metal probe does via analogue to some extent. I don't notice differences in first crack temps based on batch sizes... so maybe this has more to do with their design than others. I would love to hear that this improves roasting but will wait for results.

I believe they are claiming the IR probe is not affected by environmental temperature, which the thermocouple most likely is. The IBTS was reading the metal vanes causing erratic data, thus the algorithms built into the software. How this could improve roasting is by providing the operator with more accurate real time data. How one interprets and uses the information is another matter....

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Almico

Postby Almico » Jan 20, 2019, 11:44 am

I got tired of wading through the murk and muck in that article way before I finished.

Did they really say that the lack of turning point, and the fact that 1C now measures 30* higher means you are seeing the "real bean temp for the first time"? I beg to differ. What you are likely seeing is the mix of drum and bean temps. Conventional probes only experience bean temp and the air around the bean. An IR sensor will read what ever it hits...like the back of the drum?

Maybe I'm wrong, but there is an awful lot of hyperbole there. If it was measuring bean temp so accurately, why the need for algorithms to interpret the data?

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TomC
Team HB

Postby TomC » Jan 20, 2019, 12:26 pm

Almico wrote: If it was measuring bean temp so accurately, why the need for algorithms to interpret the data?


I agree with most of your sentiment. I think the problem is the fact that they have to have an algorithm to remove the error induced by the vanes of the drum that will have an entirely different emissivity than the beans. By the time the Alillio is broken in, the drum shouldn't change too much in terms of baked on shiny black oils, so hopefully that won't be an ongoing problem.

I would like to know if they took some chances and placed their newer sensor in other locations. It seems if there's a small fan keeping debris away from the sensor, you might be able to get away with mounting it in other locations, where the vanes aren't in the way (which would have to be down towards the bottom front of the drum by the door.

Something could likely be rigged onto a makeshift replacement bean tryer that aims right at the spinning bean mass, but in front of any vanes.

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Almico

Postby Almico » Jan 20, 2019, 12:37 pm

TomC wrote:Something could likely be rigged onto a makeshift replacement bean tryer that aims right at the spinning bean mass, but in front of any vanes.


How does IR react to glass? If would be nice to be able to just shine it through the sight glass.

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drgary
Team HB

Postby drgary » Jan 20, 2019, 12:58 pm

For installations other than the Aillio, why not install the IR sensor along with conventional thermocouples? You would be seeing the usual TC readings and anything the IR picks up faster than the TC would.
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

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Almico

Postby Almico » Jan 20, 2019, 1:10 pm

Both these profiles are using different charge weights of the same coffee. Between them, the first crack readings vary by almost 30° on the traditional probes, making it very difficult to meaningfully compare them to each other. But on the IR they are essentially the same, varying by only a few degrees. This is because bean mass does not influence the IR temperature reading in the same way it does traditional probes."

What? I roast 1# batches and 6# batches and 1C is always the same on the same coffee and, and only +/- 4* on very different coffees. What are they talking about?

Bean mass does not affect 1C, and definitely not to the tune of 30*; it does affect how fast the beans heat up with a given amount of heat energy available.

And if IR was indeed the "future of coffee roasting", you wouldn't have to shout it from the rooftops...just do it and let the results speak for themselves. They should stop talking quickly.

cushdan

Postby cushdan » Jan 20, 2019, 2:23 pm

yakster wrote:My first real roast with the new V1.5 Bullet from the latest Sweet Maria's batch with 472 grams of Colombia Vereda Buesaquito. I have nothing much to compare this to, but I dropped it after first crack and it smells pretty good.

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And worth noting in that graph that the new IBT is labeled as the drum temp and the bean temp is the old TC

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yakster

Postby yakster » Jan 20, 2019, 4:20 pm

So the graph for the new version doesn't display drum temp any longer, just the new and the old bean temp, right? I wasn't too clear on that, though I'd read it on the roast.world forum. I expect things will change with future upgrades, including a mention of ROR for the IBTS sensor, IIRC.

I updated my previous post, the coffee I roasted yesterday turned out delicious.
-Chris

LMWDP # 272