Versalab M3 Thoughts and Discovery - Page 2

#11: Post by **Exordium01** » October 16th, 2018, 12:57 am

aecletec wrote:Really? No, there was much resistance to the idea of playing with grounds. WDT became accepted due to people trying and testing it, finding it improves flavour and even extractions. If you don't need it, or notice the improvement that's handy for you.

Thanks for removing all context from my post. I appreciate it.

October 16th, 2018, 12:59 am

I'm responding to a specific point - feel free to expound on why you think it's dogma.

#13: Post by **Exordium01** » October 16th, 2018, 1:02 am

It's thrown around and accepted as fact that it's necessary in every discussion of coffee grinders. I admitted in my first post in the thread that it was an effective way of leveling grinds, but it is absolutely not necessary. The context of my post was in addressing the OP's argument that the M3 is unique in not needing WDT.

#14: Post by **day** » October 16th, 2018, 1:44 am

gophish wrote:I received an M3 about 6 weeks ago and have been documenting my thoughts on the usage, design, and taste comparisons with other single dosing grinders like the Compak K10 PB and Monolith Flat, as well as some limited testing with a Mahlkonig K30 and a Slayer Single Group. I know this is somewhat self promotional to link these posts to an outside site, but I'm hoping you'll look past that because:

-I didn't really feel it would be very productive to simply cut and paste the content of those posts here, but I do feel like a lot of the content is relevant, especially given a few threads I've seen posted in recent weeks, and I would genuinely like to have a conversation and discuss if others have had similar findings.

-I haven't really seen any recent head to heads with the M3, or comparisons with it against many of the other single dosers or on a machine like a slayer, so maybe that will be helpful for someone researching a new grinder.

-Despite lots of prior research, I never really understood the M3. If you do much searching, most threads and reviews are quite old and numerous threads turn into a back and forth of sorts without any clear information. I was somewhat curious as to why that was, and why there was so much controversy around it. As stated in my posts, a lot of my findings involved Versalab's communications, and sometimes lack thereof, and sometimes not in a manner that was relate-able or that clearly communicated the usage of the grinder and/or changes they've made over the years. In short, I've found they're engineers, not marketers.

So, I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way, or stir up any trouble by doing so, mods - please contact me if you have concerns, and I hope sharing my recent findings of the M3 can start a relevant discussion to the new more populated single dosing market.

http://www.meticulist.net/versalab-m3-s ... er-review/
This first post looks at usage, since I think this might have been my biggest discovery, is that the M3 was not designed with usage similar to other single dosing Titans. This ends up being a theme as I discovered that the M3 was designed with different priorities in mind, or at least a different way of getting there, so the usage is dictated as such.

http://www.meticulist.net/blog/versalab ... iew-part-2
This second post is more of the standard details looking at the design, function, unboxing, etc.

http://www.meticulist.net/blog/versalab ... taste-test
This third post goes into taste comparisons with the likes of the Compak K10PB, Monolith Flat, Mahlkonig K30, a Slayer Single Group, and different methods of workflow based on the intended usage of the M3. This is probably the most pertinent post to the discussions here at HB, as I found the M3 was purposely designed to not require redistribution, RDT, WDT, etc., which take additional time between grinding and pulling the shot, and this can impact the flavor in the cup.

I look forward to hearing any thoughts, questions, or discussions.

I didn't see you answer whether or not you got it at a discount or free for review or other purposes?

#15: Post by HB » October 16th, 2018, 7:44 am

See the prior page:

gophish wrote:This unit was a bench unit from Versalab for testing, I did not pay for and do not own it. I'm a hobbyist, just like most of you, and I did not receive any compensation from these posts. I had many clear conversations with the company prior to them sending, and it was agreed that all thoughts posted would be my own. I'm not an official review site by any means, it's a blog, thus it's all going to be somewhat opinionated, but they are my opinions and findings.

October 16th, 2018, 11:38 am

Exordium01 wrote:It's thrown around and accepted as fact that it's necessary in every discussion of coffee grinders. I admitted in my first post in the thread that it was an effective way of leveling grinds, but it is absolutely not necessary. The context of my post was in addressing the OP's argument that the M3 is unique in not needing WDT.

I don't think the M3 is necessarily unique in not requiring WDT, but if you look at the most talked about single dosing grinders, (monoliths, hg-1, eg-1) they all include some sort of redistribution (to varying degrees) in the inherent workflow. That's not to say they won't function without it, but Kafatek includes a WDT tool, and I don't know if he still includes his grooming tool, LWW includes the tumbler/shaker, etc.

My point here is that, at least in my perception, we've come to accept these processes as part of being able to have top of class grind quality, zero retention, and single dosing properties.

And that my (personal) discovery, and what others have pointed out with Versalab's website and marketing materials, has been that the M3 was designed to not use those steps to reduce the amount of time spent prepping the basket. That they feel this has a positive impact on flavor in the cup by way of extracting more of those volatile aromatic compounds. Whether or not that's true, or is a detectable difference for you would be the question. In my testing so far, I feel like I can detect the difference. Exordium01's point about what is evaporating when locked in the group is an interesting one.

#17: Post by **grog** » October 16th, 2018, 1:24 pm

I am not questioning your conclusion that based on taste, shots pulled as close to bring ground as possible taste different, but for me anyway, it removes some enjoyment in the whole process if I'm focused primarily on getting the shot pulled as fast as humanly possible once the grind is complete. The process of prepping a basket, and refining that skill over time, is part of the 'play' with these amazing machines that I enjoy. I get it that Versalab's goal is minimizing prep time in order to get grinds to extraction happening as quickly as possible.

With my Monolith Flat, I hit the pre-measured dose with one spray for RDT, dump that into the grinder (with the safety cap in place), cover with the lid from my LWW blind shaker, and grind. At my preferred speed of 350, it takes about 30 seconds or so to complete the grind, plus another 4 seconds to hit the purge button, pat the top and tap the magnetic chute to ensure the last bits are out. Then I tap to settle, WDT, remove the funnel and use the grooming tool Denis includes, and tamp. The whole process from misting beans to tamping is maybe 1:30 tops, probably closer to a minute. The longest part by far is waiting for the grinder to do its thing.

Let's say I instead skipped RDT (saves 1 second at most), skipped the purge/pat/tap (4 seconds), skipped WDT (5 seconds) and grooming tool (2-3 seconds). At the high end I'm saving 12-15 seconds. I don't see that as an absurdly long or even complex workflow. Also, there are many users of single dosers who skip RDT, WDT or both once the burrs are broken in. I guess I will skip all of that with tomorrow morning's shots and see what the extraction looks like and if it tastes better to me. I know some owners have already tried this...

I also understand that for some people, a basket prep routine is annoying in of itself and they would prefer to grind into PF, tamp, and lock in.

#18: Post by **AssafL** » October 16th, 2018, 3:05 pm

Personally, I think a grinders job doesn't have to end with comminution. I think normalization (what WDT does) is an important part. If it can nail distribution and grooming even more so.

The last two are easy and can't ruin a shot so ok. But normalization is tricky. Sure one can buy Reese's tool, or make their own. Or use the yogurt shakers (which morphed into tumblers). But it isn't hard for a grinder to do a vastly superior and consistent work of it.

October 20th, 2018, 2:09 am

The grounds that come out of the Versalab are famously fluffy and clump-free, so in theory would require no WDT........but they do require re-distribution to fill that big gaping hole in the middle. In practice I WDT my grounds like crazy (using the Londinium whisk) to re-distribute the grounds and fill the middle hole (I use the Londinium funnel so there's no mess).

I'm curious as to the OP's theory for why his shots pulled evenly without WDT/re-distribution, even with that big hole in the middle. Or if he heard what John Bicht thinks of this -- I mean, even his suggested strike-off technique would only fill the middle a little bit and would still leave it very low density.

I tried just grinding, tapping once to settle the grounds, tamping, and pulling -- and I got what I expected: massive gusher right through the center. I've tried other methods to fill the middle hole but unless you totally redistribute the grounds you'll end up with lower density in the middle and a gusher (admittedly the lack of preinfusion and high flow rate of my Linea Mini makes this problem more obvious).

Also, what coffees have you been using?

#20: Post by **AssafL** » October 20th, 2018, 2:39 am

I reduced the speed and added vanes to get a less pronounced hole. It works well with toppling the mound into the hole as long as it is done from all around. A unidirectional swipe will result in uneven density.