User experience with Timemore Sculptor Grinders 078 078s - Page 6

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
malling
Posts: 2936
Joined: 13 years ago

#51: Post by malling »

He has a f58 that only measures pressure not flowrate, for that you really only have physical feedback through the lever and you have to have a pressure transducer, weight plus app combinations that can help you to get closer to what you can see, but still No flowrate... but that's like 700 additional investment.

But yes there should be no consistency issues

Pflunz
Posts: 141
Joined: 4 years ago

#52: Post by Pflunz »

I have to admit I misread the post and thought he has problems with consistency, which he doesn't have.
After rereading that post, I have no clue what I was reading :D

Jonk
Posts: 2215
Joined: 4 years ago

#53: Post by Jonk »

Jakemo136 wrote:Not astringent, but over-roasted and surprisingly devoid of sweetness or even character, really.
If you haven't already tried it, you could try a little bit lighter roasts. I only have the 078, so can't say for sure, but it sounds like the 078S doesn't suit the kind of beans you've been using. You should at least be able to avoid the over-roasted note by finding a suitable roast level [for 078S].

Otherwise yes, you might have to change grinder to make it work with what you like. Perhaps you'd be more happy with a Niche Zero or for example Kingrinder K4. Nothing wrong with that.

malling
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Joined: 13 years ago

#54: Post by malling »

Before burying it he should try a different pressure profile, try letting it tail off and try different PI styles... might even want to reduce peak pressure down to 8 bar.

Milligan
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#55: Post by Milligan »

From what I've collected on the 078s it is meant for modern to medium roasts, but not quite Nordic or dark. You likely aren't getting the fines you need out of the grinder to hold back shot time. Traditional burrs give more fines at a coarser setting mixed in with the boulders/average sized grinds that help stabilize the puck and create resistance. I suspect once you do grind fine enough on the 078s to hold back the shot then there are a lot of similarly sized small grinds that you get overextraction (higher overall surface area.) Perhaps try to lower the temperature more. You aren't going to get the textural, gooey shots chasing ratio to something like 1:2+.

At the end of the day, I don't believe the 078s is an ideal grinder for your preferred shot style. As noted above, I'd be looking for a traditional style flat burr or into some conicals. A Niche would be nice if you are wanting consistency and medium to dark roast range. I had astringency issues when going with longer ratios with the Niche but 1:1 - 1:2 were where it shined.

Jakemo136
Posts: 9
Joined: 3 months ago

#56: Post by Jakemo136 »

Thanks all for the responses; I'll reply in one message here:
malling wrote:...now I never tried 078s and I got the impression it at least should do a 1:2 decently well. But some do say it's more in between traditional and modern interpretations of it. This is largely also consequence of them trying to also make it perform for filter.

The moment you design a burr to do lighter roast and filter better your bound to sacrifice on more traditional stuff at traditional ratios.
Yeah, to corroborate, I've seen the other reviews that the burrs fall somewhere between traditional and modern. I'd be willing to sacrifice a bit of the "traditional" aspects if I could get a shot that even tasted good, but I haven't been able to find those magic numbers yet.
malling wrote:Also a burr will also influence on the ideal pressure profile, the one you use might work for the Vario, might not be ideal for the Sculpture burrs... you might want to rethink how you do preinfusion and keep it at 9 bar remaining of the shot, you might want to let it tail off to keep more constant flowrate, by holding at 9bar you increase flowrate which might work against you.
I'd happily adjust all my pressure profiling parameters (nice alliteration) to make a shot that I think is good (and that definition is flexible), but I haven't yet had suggestions that even seemed to lead in an enjoyable direction :cry:
Milligan wrote:From what I've collected on the 078s it is meant for modern to medium roasts, but not quite Nordic or dark. You likely aren't getting the fines you need out of the grinder to hold back shot time. Traditional burrs give more fines at a coarser setting mixed in with the boulders/average sized grinds that help stabilize the puck and create resistance. I suspect once you do grind fine enough on the 078s to hold back the shot then there are a lot of similarly sized small grinds that you get overextraction (higher overall surface area.) Perhaps try to lower the temperature more. You aren't going to get the textural, gooey shots chasing ratio to something like 1:2+.

At the end of the day, I don't believe the 078s is an ideal grinder for your preferred shot style. As noted above, I'd be looking for a traditional style flat burr or into some conicals. A Niche would be nice if you are wanting consistency and medium to dark roast range. I had astringency issues when going with longer ratios with the Niche but 1:1 - 1:2 were where it shined.
Fortunately I enjoy light roasts -- and I believe you're spot-on with the assessment of fines and shot time, etc, and how it relates to my experience of the 078s so far. I have no desire to go above 1:2 ratio at all; not my style of espresso. Again, I'm a light-roast fan and occasionally dip into medium roasts, but rarely at that, and I never buy dark roast (just the beans my dad gives me after roasting). I'm still willing to accept the possibility the 078s burrs just won't pull the kind of shots I like, but I have a sneaking suspicion there's still a chance to find a happy compromise -- I have seen others report they are dialing in good 1:1.5-2 shots that are gooey and yummy on the 078s with light roast, I just want more data from them...
malling wrote:Before burying it he should try a different pressure profile, try letting it tail off and try different PI styles... might even want to reduce peak pressure down to 8 bar.
Yes, I'm definitely open to that. This adventure made me recall that I actually only started pulling straight 9 bar shots this year; before this I would hit 9 bar then taper to 5-6 as the flow increased. I adjusted my grind finer to accommodate the 9 bar without the puck breaking up, but I can see how the 078s might not work well for that at all. I'm very open to suggestions! I'd much rather find a way to make espresso that I enjoy (even if it's a little different) than go through with getting rid of the 078s.
Jonk wrote:If you haven't already tried it, you could try a little bit lighter roasts. I only have the 078, so can't say for sure, but it sounds like the 078S doesn't suit the kind of beans you've been using. You should at least be able to avoid the over-roasted note by finding a suitable roast level [for 078S].
Thanks, Jonk. I vastly prefer light roast and only occasionally dip into medium territory. So I'm in the right space for roast level, I just haven't been able to find the magic parameters to pull a shot that I find "good."

**Edit;
It's been pointed out very appropriately that perhaps my grinding of light roast beans less than a week off roast is also contributing heavily to my negative experience, and that the 078s is actually highlighting the off-flavors that result from brewing too-fresh beans, and that's largely coloring my experience. Thoughts?

malling
Posts: 2936
Joined: 13 years ago

#57: Post by malling »

Jakemo136 wrote:Thanks all for the responses; I'll reply in one message here:



Yeah, to corroborate, I've seen the other reviews that the burrs fall somewhere between traditional and modern. I'd be willing to sacrifice a bit of the "traditional" aspects if I could get a shot that even tasted good, but I haven't been able to find those magic numbers yet.



I'd happily adjust all my pressure profiling parameters (nice alliteration) to make a shot that I think is good (and that definition is flexible), but I haven't yet had suggestions that even seemed to lead in an enjoyable direction :cry:



Fortunately I enjoy light roasts -- and I believe you're spot-on with the assessment of fines and shot time, etc, and how it relates to my experience of the 078s so far. I have no desire to go above 1:2 ratio at all; not my style of espresso. Again, I'm a light-roast fan and occasionally dip into medium roasts, but rarely at that, and I never buy dark roast (just the beans my dad gives me after roasting). I'm still willing to accept the possibility the 078s burrs just won't pull the kind of shots I like, but I have a sneaking suspicion there's still a chance to find a happy compromise -- I have seen others report they are dialing in good 1:1.5-2 shots that are gooey and yummy on the 078s with light roast, I just want more data from them...



Yes, I'm definitely open to that. This adventure made me recall that I actually only started pulling straight 9 bar shots this year; before this I would hit 9 bar then taper to 5-6 as the flow increased. I adjusted my grind finer to accommodate the 9 bar without the puck breaking up, but I can see how the 078s might not work well for that at all. I'm very open to suggestions! I'd much rather find a way to make espresso that I enjoy (even if it's a little different) than go through with getting rid of the 078s.



Thanks, Jonk. I vastly prefer light roast and only occasionally dip into medium territory. So I'm in the right space for roast level, I just haven't been able to find the magic parameters to pull a shot that I find "good."
If it act like most modern espresso burrs, the puck doesn't have the integrity that make it hold up well for high pressure shots that don't tail off, I often seen drastic increases in flowrate as puck deteriorate and often that isn't all that desirable. Try let the pressure drop and keep a more steady flow you can very easily feel that through the tactile feedback through the lever.

My mazzer burrs for example hold up much better then my cast and especially my high unimodal burrs, that said high flowrate is perhaps less an issue on those its not just the style your after.

Milligan
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#58: Post by Milligan »

I'm sorry, I did not notice you said you enjoy light roast, low ratio espresso. When I think of 1:1 or 1:1.5 I think of medium-dark to dark.

shadACII
Posts: 12
Joined: 1 year ago

#59: Post by shadACII »

My 078S is certainly not a low puck integrity grinder, quite the opposite and I don't enjoy really light roasted coffe but rather more medium. I don't drink dark, so cannot comment there. But for medium to medium light mostly traditional shots are working (1:2.2 in about 27 s) for me. For really light roasts my 078S is boring, muddy and adds a layer of artificial chocolate above everything. Acidity gets muted quite strongly. The one particle distribution chart I know of shows a quite narrow main peak and a sizeable amount of fines (Source: https://www.kaffeemacher.ch/blog/timemo ... s-im-test/), which I think can align with my findings. However, from what I've read about the 078S there are units that are quite sensitive to channeling and units that aren't. I for example don't have much channeling problems most of the time. At least not if my puck prep is good, and I can grind way off chirp (nearly chocked the decent with a blooming shot, medium light roast ground at 3.8 of chirp). So it seems to me that there is quite a lot of variance either in the grinder or in the burrs of the 078S.

Jakemo136
Posts: 9
Joined: 3 months ago

#60: Post by Jakemo136 »

That's a super interesting article, thank you for posting the link. Used Chrome to translate it to English and found this sentence interesting:
"The espresso extractions were not only very balanced and sweet, but also showed the facets of the coffees used."

However, to your point, it does seem like there is quite a tremendous variance from unit to unit in how users perceive the end result. I'm going to acquiesce with science and prevailing wisdom and try using lighter roast beans that have more than just a couple days off roast.