I don't use bellows but I do have a lagom mini that I like to pat after a job well done, it responds well to positive reinforcement.

LObin wrote:I'd be extremely surprised if bellows or no bellows is the deciding factor for the vast majority. Especially given that the DF64V retention seems very low, even without using the blower.

The 064S and DF64V are different in specs and look despite their obvious similitude.

For now, I'd say the Timemore Sculptor extremely low launching prices and great marketing is what explains the difference in popularity at this stage.
We'll see how things evolve once they both land on early buyers and backers coffee bars as well as YouTubers studios...

There quite the lot who despise bellows, who would choose another product if the option is there. The reason people so far has accepted it is mainly because that hasn't been an option on budget. With Timemore that however seem to change. I never heard anyone say they liked bellows and most probably would rather be without given the chance.

Why I went with 78S Timemore even though I was close to pull the trigger on DF83...

Small 64mm I tried the different burrs and these aren't delivering the same spectrum as those nearing 80mm and above, RPM doesn't really change that.

Again, not saying people like bellows. Based on the few videos available at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if most people ditch the bellow on their DF64V.
I only stated that the price difference right now is likely a bigger deciding factor than the bellow conundrum.

I mean on Aficionados, Joe Kolb has given a few $299, $199 and $99 off coupon codes when the first batch order opened. They went in a split second. Extend those rebates over a few weeks and invest in publicity the way Timemore has (every other add on social media is Timemore! At least on my feed)... The portrait would be different.

Like several others I suspect, i was going to get the 83 V2 and then decided on the 78s.

The Turin grinders have now gained reputation for a tinkerer's grinder, fun for people that want to 3d print and install anti static and on and on. Personally, seeing how problematic the 83 was after all they should have learned from the 64 tells me they don't have the in house ability to innovate to fix their problems. But then again, the 64 looks like a cheaper version of a p64.. which is fine and explains why they are always trailing other manufacturers, ie, fellow on the anti static.

The timemore grinders appear to be very different. There is a design aesthetic, a clear attention to details and the idea of a finished product. No one knows how they will handle the real world but that's why they are going aggressive on the ks prices.

That's a valid point. Turin grinders are definitely popular amongst tinkerers.
I knew, when buying the DF83 V1 that there would eventually be a V2 correcting some of its flaws.
I since have removed the declumper, changed the dial sticker, found a deeper dosing cup, use a tilted cup holder and anti-popcorning, and have a plasma generator on the way. So yeah... Valid point

DF83V2 may very well be the last version though...

I like the idea of having alternative burr options (HU for now and Cast soon) which is not a sure thing fpr the 078S yet, except for ghost and turbo.

However, the DF64V looks extremely well designed and it could very well be the first Turin grinder for non-tinkerer

SSP is nice option when you have grinders equipped with some mediocre burrs, when that isn't the case the attraction of SSP just isn't the same. I honestly don't see a point with the pre 2015 EK, Lab Sweet, 804 or Peak/E80, r120, simply because these where or are equipped with excellent burrs to begin with that leaves really no quality difference in regards to ssp.

That's not the case with DF range grinders, Mazzer etc. that need SSP to be even of remotely of interest to us light roast drinkers. By all accounts that's not the case at least for the 78 version that is much like the first mentioned, I rather not invest in an additional burr given the choice it makes the grinder useful from the get go and a lower investment.

Also not all SSP are marvellous their HU named burrs are not spectacular neither are the espresso tagged burrs for most part and their MP build on the ProM are so and so.

64cast, 98brew, 98LU, 98Cast are the better ones

I know you have extensive experience with many grinders and various burr set. However, it's important to keep in mind that other people may have different experiences or preferences.
A certain burr set may please someone while it may be a disappointment for others. SSP MP's come to mind.
And yes, I do like lightly roasted natural Ethiopian's and a medium-dark blend for my lattes... Weird I know.

The 078S is very promising and I'm sure it will please many backers. 78 turbo burrs may be a perfect match for some while being a bit too "niche" (not the grinder) for others.

In any case, I stand behind what I said about the little impact on sales of the bellows factor and bigger impact being launch price and publicity campaign.

LObin wrote:
I know you have extensive experience with many grinders and various burr set. However, it's important to keep in mind that other people may have different experiences or preferences.
A certain burr set may please someone while it may be a disappointment for others. SSP MP's come to mind.
And yes, I do like lightly roasted natural Ethiopian's and a medium-dark blend for my lattes... Weird I know.

The 078S is very promising and I'm sure it will please many backers. 78 turbo burrs may be a perfect match for some while being a bit too "niche" (not the grinder) for others.

In any case, I stand behind what I said about the little impact on sales of the bellows factor and bigger impact being launch price and publicity campaign.

When I valuate burrs it's done out from as objective parameters possible. For example can I detect the broad spectrum of the coffee and can I detect defects how is the base flavour represented, clarity etc. If a burr fails at that or there some challenges, its not a great burr. That is not to say that some might still like it though, but objectively its not a great burr set because it mask certain things that makes them useless for evaluation and those fail. MP just happens to really be a prime example of that, as it mask rather critical defects and mute certain notes, some don't mind that but objectively it's a problem.

So for me it's not about personal preferences, but how burrs perform for the type these are meant to be.

Some of the 83mm Mazzer are decent burrs purely objectively, the 64mm however isn't. It's both blending burrs, however the 83mm just doesn't kill the coffee and handles far larger variations in roasting profiles the 64mm doesn't really. Neither are really my personal preference, but that's really something else, I totally agree with Jim that there aren't many fantastic flat under 75mm, SSP really an exception Hansung burrs are basically just improved burrs or at least an effort to improve it.

He used ProM, Mythos, Lab Sweet and Ditting/Mahlkonig cast and Machined as his base design in many of his burrs and that dos show.

My preference is more towards balanced burrs, that delivers a more juicy cup. So 98Brew isn't actually my favourite burr but objectively it dos something very well.

Sproyo wrote:FWIW I've had a df64v for a month now. I've gone through 5 bags of coffee, all espresso grinds, without any issue.

That is encouraging news.
Is it a 110volt machine?
What are your impressions of the grinder?

Yes 110v. Overall it's a nice budget grinder with some premiumish features, basically a nicer looking and sounding df64 that doesn't require any mods.

I don't do comparative tasting so I don't have comments on the stock dlc burrs other than they make good espresso.

Burrs came factory aligned, but I found removing their shims actually improved alignment.

I really like the magnetic chute, easy to clack them to get grinds out. I don't rdt because I have opinions that static is beneficial for wdt. Because of that there is a small amount of mess from using it.

I would like finer grind adjustment, but it's still workable. It will easily stall at 600rpm, I keep it at 1200rpm. It sorta seems that rpm can be used as a stand in for micro grind adjustments but I'm not sure yet.

The brushless motor is extremely quiet, the grinding noise is high pitched and annoying. The cord is fixed to the machine, there is no on/off indication, and the rpm light is always on.

I don't like the catch cup design. You can't fit a scale underneath because the baseplate is awkward. The cup itself isn't what is pictured in marketing, it's similar to the lagom mini cup. For some reason it has an inlaid foam pad that does nothing.