Frankie4 wrote: The distributor of the DF grinders is separate from the manufacturer, and it seems that their inadequate response has affected the reputation of the product. This is why I strongly recommend purchasing from a local distributor, regardless of the product. While buying from overseas might be cheaper, it often means sacrificing the level of support you would receive. If you encounter any issues with your product, the local distributor is more likely to provide the necessary assistance. Perhaps this is why DF64coffee.com can offer a lower price, as they understand their support commitment may be lower compared to a local distributor.

Most distributors are separate from the manufacturer, but some aren't. My understanding - which certainly could be wrong - is the opposite and that DF64Coffee based in Singapore is the master distributor of the products and the actual owner of the brands and intellectual property which they manufacture at both Ningbo Frigga Electric Appliance and Zhejiang Feilai Electric Appliance (and maybe other places). That is why DF64 only carries the "DF64" family of products and not other brands and get the products generally first and well before others. Whatever the precise relationship the companies are somehow interrelated.

But all of this is a bit of a secondary issue if you buy one of these grinders. No doubt in many ways its better to buy from somebody further down the retail chain who will "make you happy." For me the basic problem is the quality control of the DF64V grinder which doesn't seem ready for primetime and isn't a product I personally would want regardless of who sold it to me. In some ways I was lucky that it failed immediately while I could still get rid of it and not waiting for a more latent defect to appear in a year. With my last grinder I never needed to worry about whether it would turn on in the morning over roughly 20 years (a Mazzer), and I don't want to live with poor quality equipment.

I'm terribly sorry but you are mistaken. They are not the master distributor. They may come across as they are however they are not. If they were and as you claim the first to have stock that clearly was not the case as Espresso Outlet (US distributor) was the first to ship out DF64V grinders.

So you base the QC of the whole product range on one grinder? Really? All products have issues and unfortunately sometimes products are dead on arrival. I think you would find the reality is the DF range of grinders have a relative low failure rate and have been able to hold up in a commercial environment where they are tested in a lot more gruelling environment than a domestic setting.

I hope your credit card company comes to the party and sorts you out, however I suspect the fact that DF64coffee have a no returns policy I fear they may dishonour your claim.

@Makanmata I think it's safe to say that you had a very poor experience with DF64coffee.com

I understand there's a frustration and disappointment. I'd feel the same.

There also been very little responses to the suggestions that have been given by members here and a whole lot of assumptions in your last few posts. A few members suggested it would've been a very different experience if you had opted for a local distributor, Espresso Outlet notably.

What if the grinder was working fine and the issue is just a disconnected wire which could have happened at any time during transport or handling...? Anyways...

Sounds like you're done with Turin so the question is what are you going to replace it with?

Good question and I haven't had time to really consider the next move as I had expected this grinder to work out and haven't even looked at developments in the grinder space since I ordered it in March. The Lagom machines certainly look nice, but I'm not crazy about the price or waiting for another long lead time until delivery. I've come to appreciate the commercial quality of the Mazzer Mini I've had for well over a decade without the slightest problem and maybe I'll just mod it to a single dose and wait for the big reliable manufacturers to come out with a single dose machine.

Frankie4 wrote:...the fact that DF64coffee have a no returns policy I fear they may dishonour your claim.

Good word choice, "dishonor."

In my opinion any company that has a "no returns" policy is broadcasting that they do not believe in the product they are selling. They are also saying that they do not believe in (as in care about) their customers. Personally I would not give such a company my business because I'd neither want to assume the risks involved nor would I want to support a company like that. I think it really sucks what happened to Makanmata and unfortunately it sours me towards the df64v (which I was previously considering) even if this was just a lemon or it was damaged in shipping and this is simply the response of a single distributor. Someone somewhere is choosing who those distributors will be and is signing off on their policies and behavior.

I guess this is all somewhat on topic still for those interested in buying the DF64V.
Enlighten me, how would a 'no returns' policy work in the case of a defective product? In what way would the credit card company / laws not be on Makanmata's side? I mean I guess they could insist on sending a working unit, but can customers really be expected to carry out repairs?

Expecting a customer to carry out repairs is not reasonable however they may suggest it to save the customer expensive shipping costs. Not saying that is the case here. Ultimately it will come down to the credit card companies to decide was a product supplied and has the supplier offered to rectify the issue. DF64coffee might offer to send out a new unit provided Makanmata covers the shipping costs of the new unit and the return of the existing unit. In an instance like this then I would find it hard to see how the credit card company could justify the refund. If the consumer decides to purchase from an overseas seller then the consumer accepts there may be additional costs if the product needs to be returned to the seller for repairs.

In regards to laws, well which one would apply? Is it in this case, US or Singapore law. I suspect they are both very different when it comes to consumer rights. I would guess it would be Singapore law as that is where the seller is based but I am just guessing on this.

Jonk wrote:I guess this is all somewhat on topic still for those interested in buying the DF64V.
Enlighten me, how would a 'no returns' policy work in the case of a defective product? In what way would the credit card company / laws not be on Makanmata's side? I mean I guess they could insist on sending a working unit, but can customers really be expected to carry out repairs?

I think for most people common sense says that a business can't steal your money by delivering defective goods and tell you that you're out of luck and have to accept that just because it puts fine print on its website absolving themselves of everything. But what these people don't understand is that there is no such thing as a "no returns policy."

Firstly, such a policy is broadly illegal, and violates the Uniform Commercial Code, warranty laws, and Consumer Protection Laws of every state in the USA, but also the Consumer Protection and Fair Trading Act of Singapore (another reason I was so comfortable buying this grinder from Singapore). I doubt that many countries have different laws.

But even if there were no laws, the grinder was bought with a credit card, and D64 accepted the credit card for payment, and the Mastercard network which runs that system includes a requirement for merchants that conforming goods or services actually be delivered, and that the bank may charge the merchant back for goods not delivered or services not provided as promised. Unlike the fine print in a contract or website, the credit card is a real contract and an easily enforceable one.

So nobody should be bullied and made to believe that any contract is so one sided that a consumer can pay for new goods but that the merchant doesn't need to deliver them. Also, if you see something you want to buy from overseas, you shouldn't consider it a dangerous transaction and the insurance you're paying to buy it locally might be worth less than you think. Just for example, I bought my Decent espresso machine from Hong Kong, and that company is as on top of their obligations and responsive to their consumers as any company I've ever dealt with.

Makanmata wrote:According to one US distributer, many units are having problems and the manufacturer is changing production to address the issues.

Can you share more info on this? I assume the distributor you're referring to is df64coffee.com. I haven't seen anything about known manufacturing problems on any of the popular forums.

DF64coffee is not from the US, it is a Malaysian distributor. My assumption is EspressoOutlet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯