RapidCoffee wrote:Either my friends are less honest than yours, or (more likely) have less discerning tastes when it comes to espresso.

Actually, it is probably an issue of tact. Since I don't show a whole lot of it to my friends, they probably don't feel they owe it to me in return!

ken

AndyS wrote:[emphasis in the above quote added by me]


"Using equipment the way it was designed to be used," do you realize how hysterically funny that concept is on Home-Barista.com?

We have people here who remove the hopper from their grinder, weigh out whole beans and drop them in a empty grinder throat, weigh beans down in the throat with tampers, stir their grounds with dissecting needles, thwack thwack thwack the doser lever, put sweepers inside dosers, add spouts to doser outlets, tear dosers off and replace them with 45 degree copper elbows, replace brand new pstats with PIDs, add preheaters, add grouphead heaters, insulate boilers, cut the bottoms out of perfectly good portafilters, install custom-made E61 temperature probes, temp surf up, temp surf down, and remove filter baskets from portafilters when loading them with coffee. People buy commercial machines that are thermally designed to pull one shot a minute and practice arcane flushing rituals before each of the four shots that they prepare in a day.

We even have a guy who doses his coffee into a ramekin and weighs it on a gram scale before adding it to his portafilter! :-0
[snipped]

LMAO

IMAWriter wrote:Ken...

Including what you call John's"non standard roast set up" is I believe, not germane to this discussion. First off, what is a "standard" roast procedure? Even professional roasters differ...some use radiant, some drum, some use fluid bed, etc. Home roasting techniques are way too numerous to mention, but I truly believe that most of us (including yourself, of course) produce fine roasted coffee at home.
Just my take.

I would beg to differ.

Everything I am writing here is not directed at John, rather it is directed at everyone who home roasts. This is an issue that I brought up once on alt.coffee (in a side comment on a thread I did not start), and the thread that evolved from it was very very long. Some of the first respondents on that thread were absolutely enraged, because they appeared to honestly believe that "home roasted coffee" = artisinal coffee. It doesn't.

There is an assumption among home roasters that their roast product is good; unfortunately, this is often not the case. One reason why home roasters assume their roast product to be good is that they are comparing their home roast to what they can buy locally, which often seriously sucks. They are comparing to stuff like Starbucks or that gross dark and oily stuff sitting in bins at a supermarket.

In reality, homeroast runs the gamut, everything from very good to truly horrid. Ask anyone who has tasted a lot of it, people who get samples sent to them regularly, people who go over to other home enthusiasts' houses for an espresso ---

We home roasters are not professionals, we often have no training, we have highly varied equipment that varies in both its innate capabilities, and in the ability to accurately monitor the roast temperature during the roast process. One has to consider the impact of the raw material, e.g. the coffee, that is being used by a person who makes any particular comment about their espressos or coffees. In my opinion, the coffee that one uses is far and away the biggest factor in anyone's results, far outweighing any piece of equipment or issue of technique.

So no, I do not agree. It is always germane to ask about the coffee. And once again, John, this comment is not directed to you, rather it is a general comment and one that should be something you consider whenever someone comments about issues they may be having with espresso or any other coffee beverage.

ken

I finally replaced the"auto-tamp" thick dispersion disk on my Astra Gourmet with a thinner one and after tightening the grind I have great espresso but wet pucks,something I've never had before.Another proof it has to do with the headspace.

ken fox wrote:I would beg to differ.

Ken...begging does not become you..

There is an assumption among home roasters that their roast product is good; unfortunately, this is often not the case. One reason why home roasters assume their roast product to be good is that they are comparing their home roast to what they can buy locally, which often seriously sucks. They are comparing to stuff like starbucks or that gross dark and oily stuff sitting in bins at a supermarket.

Ken, I have not purchased coffee in a supermarket in 30 years...my only online roasted coffee comes from the usual terrific roasters often mentioned here. Not only do I enjoy it, it is a benchmark upon which I strive to approach
I, as have many other home roasters we both know have had numerous compliments from folks about our coffee, and I often roast coffee's such as metropolis "greenline" (green version of redline).. Therefore my comparisons are with artisan roasted coffee...am I their equal?....occasionally, and that's what separates (in my opinion) the rank and file homeroaster from the pro. But those occasional victories are sweet. Saving money is also a good thing, as my roasting appliance cost $89 (co/ufo combo)

Snipped

We home roasters are not professionals, we often have no training, we have highly varied equipment that varies in both its innate capabilities, and in the ability to accurately monitor the roast temperature during the roast process. One has to consider the impact of the raw material, e.g. The coffee, that is being used by a person who makes any particular comment about their espressos or coffees. In my opinion, the coffee that one uses is far and away the biggest factor in anyone's results, far outweighing any piece of equipment or issue of technique.

Speaking for myself, I use only the best coffee possible...ordering only from top vendors, and occasionally from either of the co-ops. Ken, once again, all things being relative, I've noticed absolutely no differences in my pulls (regarding times, blonding, or distribution/packing) with my homeroasted versions of say, redline than i do with the actual sent to me roasted version. Yes, acidity might vary a bit, but not in a way that gets in the way of my enjoyment.

Once again, speaking only for me, I am either a very good home roaster, or have deteriorating taste buds, because I find my home roasted coffee to be more than just acceptable, and my shots to be addictive. This has not been an overnight journey, as anyone who has observed my struggles can attest.
So...Ken, I hereby stand up to your "assumption among homeroasters that their coffee is good" comment and reply....our coffee is good. Better than good, or I wouldn't be on this website calling you out.
But as they say here in the south "I mean it in a good way'

Gentlemen;

For your awe-inspiring ceaseless focus to the science and art of coffee, I would forward an amateur's realization of historical perspective as your diligence propagates espresso's discovery into new realms entirely:

Yes, absolutely, Italians invented espresso - but to appear to say that there can be only one, for there to be true espresso - please consider the humble beverage, beer.

I remembered that it was mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh, and was probably around even earlier. Only the result, to the palate, drives it forward to the present day.

Espresso is evolving. Homage and celebration!

Trisha

Trisha wrote:Gentlemen;

Espresso is evolving. Homage and celebration!

Trisha

As in so many foods, there are all levels of quality and acceptance. Budweiser WAY outsells Sierra Nevada, and Sierra Nevada WAY outsells my local favorite, Butte Creek brewery. And yet, a friend who brewed a batch of homemade beer gave me a taste, and it was one of the most remarkable beers I have ever tasted.

And So we have MacDonalds and your local fine steak house, and we have Starbucks and your house (and my house!).

Hi...Dan cleaned up my version of my recent "rebuttal" to Mr. Ken Fox..as I was unfamiliar with how to insert my verbiage between Ken's, I used CAPS (whoops, did it again)....I sincerely apologize to any and all (including Ken) who might have been offended by my lack of proper etiquette.
Rob Jason

I have been away all day long, on a hike in the Sawtooth Wilderness in Idaho. Lacking in internet access, the only offense I have suffered today was having to view the carnage of a horrid road accident on the way back, in which an 18-wheeler cattle truck jacknifed onto a passenger car going over a mountain pass; I don't think there could have been any survivors, especially in the car. But I digress.

It sounds like you take your home roasting seriously, Rob, and that is good. I take mine seriously as well. This does not change the fact that many home roasters produce substandard results. I have tasted some, and I'll tell you, it is not uniformally excellent, however good yours might be.

Best,

ken

another_jim wrote:Usual answer: send one, and I'll run it.

Re: the Mazzer Major. I hope that someone might have one that they would loan to Jim before he either retracts this offer or gives up the Robur to the next tester. For $30 or $40 shipping, you'd be doing the HB community a huge service.