Tasting comparison between Sweet, Ode 2, Sculptor 64s and 078 - Page 5

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
iBrew
Posts: 201
Joined: 5 years ago

#41: Post by iBrew »

superworrier wrote:My 2c is this is very ungenerous and a different impression than you'd get from following his content, where he states his stuff is just opinions, and what his preferences are. I think there is a little bit of a problem in that because his content is good and thorough, people are thinking they have the same preferences.

For a counterpoint to your comments, he made a post calling out Timemore for the shipping shenanigans. Also, I don't think hate towards Comandante is unusual, there is a lot of it, and for good reason (business practices suing companies, not updating their grinder). I don't think I've seen him "call out" other reviewers, just calrify what his procedure is.

I think Timemore, being Chinese, probably is getting more flak from this because they are a Chinese company. Prima has a bigger conflict of interest than these influencers, given they literally sell the Ode and Ditting grinders, but not the Timemore (who directly skipped the retail channel).

That being said, no person is infallible, and even if an influencer is completely unbiased, it doesn't mean they share your same tastes and preferences. Sometimes people just have different views, and that's why I think things are the way they are. I think Hoffmann was way too harsh on the Ode in his review (after owning this and the Niche, which he highly rates workflow wise). Do I think he was paid off? No, he probably just had a different experience, and has different things he finds frustrating than I do.
That's not true... in the 078 review they talked about how they had the Timemore rep in house and they have orders coming. No one seems to have an issue with Timemore... I liked that they took this on and bringing it to market.. zeros issues with Timemore. I may even buy the 078. None of the issues being brought up is about Timemore or China.

LewBK
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#42: Post by LewBK »

I think Timemore, being Chinese, probably is getting more flak from this because they are a Chinese company. Prima has a bigger conflict of interest than these influencers, given they literally sell the Ode and Ditting grinders, but not the Timemore (who directly skipped the retail channel).
Prima also sells plenty of products made by Timemore: https://prima-coffee.com/manufacturers/timemoreSo the notion that the Prima reviewer is favoring Ditting or Fellow because Prima sells those grinders seems unfair. Moreover, the reviewer states that Prima had just had a meeting with Timemore about the Sculptor. I would say the likelihood that Prima ultimately starts selling the Sculptor too is high.

superworrier
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#43: Post by superworrier replying to LewBK »

I didn't feel the need to say this, but that was just an example to make a point. I agree it's unfair to say that. I do take an issue with the methodology of matching by visual grind size however, but I don't think that was influenced by any conflict of interest.

That being said, the Kickstarter market does equal to a lot of missed retail sales.

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primacoffee
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#44: Post by primacoffee »

Can you imagine how tough it must be for green buyers and Q-graders to taste ultra-fresh and sometimes questionably roasted coffees at origin, and then making major buying decisions based on that data? It's an imperfect approach to determining full flavor potential but one that still provides good enough information to make informed decisions.

Comparing taste by matching grind is one of a few legitimate ways you can evaluate grinders, but It is not comprehensive. It's one of the quickest ways to get a sense of inherent qualities with standard brew methods. As some have inferred, it comes at the cost of some brews potentially exceeding an ideal extraction threshold or channeling, and some grinders falling short of an ideal extraction threshold.

In my opinion, if you choose a reasonable grind size for the dose, roast and brew method, you'll get a reasonable representation of a grinder's flavor qualities, especially when it comes to body and clarity. Cupping is another approach, EY match is another, and individual dial-in is yet another method. All of these protocols produce valuable and legitimate information that teach us about the coffee and equipment used.

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http://prima-coffee.com

Iceman2913
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#45: Post by Iceman2913 »

Rytopa wrote:I have been using the 078 as my daily driver for a couple of months and loaning it to a friend with a Bentwood for comparision, and would like to share my thoughts

1) Built Quality no complaints, very well built

2) Taste:

This is where it gets interesting. The 078 has a taste profile that is very unlike the traditional flat or conical burrs. I would say closer to the ghost burrs profile but enhanced, especially when playing around with RPM.

The taste profile is considered very "flat", neutral with a strong emphasis on balance, without any particular focus on taste notes (ie, acidity, chocolate, etc). Imagining a soundtrack on the digital visualizer, you see all the waves up and down as the music hits different notes, with the 078, the highs and lows are more "compressed" meaning you hit lesser of the highs and lows. An interesting aspect of this grinder is as you dial finer or coarser, the notes do not really change much, except the strength (you get more of a stronger coffee vibe), which makes this grinder extremely forgiving in dialing in.

Compared to say a large flat burr, whereby small changes to dial settings can magnify or tone down certain notes quite drastically, the 078 does not exhibit this characteristic. I have been at 8 grind setting consistently, (max 18) and I don't see the need to change it. Because the taste profile is so neutral, I have been playing more with brewing methods and techniques instead. Flatbed brewers are quite a no go with this grinder as they already tend to focus on balance. V60 is preferred here with higher temps which can bring out more flavors. Also worth exploring is pouring speed, turbulence, etc, as the grinds are very easy to handle under such situations, with the lack of fines and very granular-looking particle sizes.

Higher RPM tend to stretch out the notes more, however for lower quality beans and bad roast, harshness tends to set in. Lowering the RPM compresses the notes more, at the lowest RPM will usually get you the "safest" cup profile.
Coming back to this post because someone just posted this in the timemore fb group, seeing more and more post similar to yours.

The post:
Hello! 078 owner in the UK here!
Just looking for thoughts. I guess this is the first grinder I've worked with that has such particle uniformity. I'm a coffee professional and have a ton of experience with espresso grinders and EKs.
I'm really enjoying the intense sweetness and clarity I'm getting from the 078 but I'm finding brews are a little one dimensional and can lack acidity. It's almost as if I can predict what the coffee will taste like before I brew. I do admit I haven't used it LOADS yet but I've tried a bunch of different coffees - washed Kenya, Anaerobic Brazil, Guat gesha and Burundi nat as just a cross section, but although they have their unique flavour notes the profile is generally all the same - sweet and low acid.
Any advice, or is this just what the 078 burrs do?

superworrier
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Joined: 1 year ago

#46: Post by superworrier »

Maybe brew method is the other variable? Maybe EY just needs to be pushed higher? Less astringency may change how people dial in (although people say the sweet spot is very large). Hard to say until you unite someone who loves it and someone who does not.

malling
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#47: Post by malling »

It dos sounds lots like many cast that are also very sweet, has some good clarity (not as high as unimodal) with body that give a sort of juiciness to it, but doesn't have the highest acidity.

I do think they offer something that doesn't hide the difference aspect but it's definitely not as much in your face as other profiles, it's definitely more laidback. But I also found it to be more workable for a wider variety then those high clarity burrs.

braxtonjens
Posts: 103
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#48: Post by braxtonjens »

Brew at something between 89-93 C
And between ratios of 1:12-1:14

This has been my "zone" for my ghost burr at home.

Keep in mind ghost / turbo/ hybrid ghost flats will act different than conicals and flats.

Factor is a decent amount of time to learn these burrs.
“Coffee is always a good idea”
LMWDP #617

braxtonjens
Posts: 103
Joined: 7 years ago

#49: Post by braxtonjens »

I have super juicy sweet brews with luxurious mouthfeel.

This is on another ghost burr, not specifically TIMEMORE.

A really nice profile.
“Coffee is always a good idea”
LMWDP #617

marcoffee
Posts: 28
Joined: 3 years ago

#50: Post by marcoffee »

Rytopa wrote:I have been using the 078 as my daily driver for a couple of months and loaning it to a friend with a Bentwood for comparision, and would like to share my thoughts

1) Built Quality no complaints, very well built

2) Taste:

This is where it gets interesting. The 078 has a taste profile that is very unlike the traditional flat or conical burrs. I would say closer to the ghost burrs profile but enhanced, especially when playing around with RPM.

The taste profile is considered very "flat", neutral with a strong emphasis on balance, without any particular focus on taste notes (ie, acidity, chocolate, etc). Imagining a soundtrack on the digital visualizer, you see all the waves up and down as the music hits different notes, with the 078, the highs and lows are more "compressed" meaning you hit lesser of the highs and lows. An interesting aspect of this grinder is as you dial finer or coarser, the notes do not really change much, except the strength (you get more of a stronger coffee vibe), which makes this grinder extremely forgiving in dialing in.

Compared to say a large flat burr, whereby small changes to dial settings can magnify or tone down certain notes quite drastically, the 078 does not exhibit this characteristic. I have been at 8 grind setting consistently, (max 18) and I don't see the need to change it. Because the taste profile is so neutral, I have been playing more with brewing methods and techniques instead. Flatbed brewers are quite a no go with this grinder as they already tend to focus on balance. V60 is preferred here with higher temps which can bring out more flavors. Also worth exploring is pouring speed, turbulence, etc, as the grinds are very easy to handle under such situations, with the lack of fines and very granular-looking particle sizes.
The description of a flat or neutral profile that emphasizes the mid-extraction notes instead of the earlier or end extraction notes is more or less the result of a more unimodal grind. Let's say for a coffee with tart strawberry, honey, and fermenty boozy notes, an ideal C40 would have a clearer definition and separation of those notes, have a bit higher body, but a bit less sweetness and balance. The same brew with a Zp6 (though at a finer grind and a longer total brew time for similar intensity/strength), will have the same notes but less tartness and less booze (cleaner), it will have a stronger presence of the honey note and the strawberry will be be a smoother acidity than a tart one. That being said this would be with side by side calibrated brews, I'd say the difference is probably just 10-15% at most and probably would not be noticeable if not side by side.

It's just my personal opinion that people unhappy with the Zp6 were either expecting world changing differences (it's amazing but for me is just both a more unimodal and better priced alternative to the C40, I still find it a bit too pricy) or are just not fans of or used to more unimodal output which would require finer grinds and higher extraction.

The SSP 64mm Brew burrs v1 go a step further than the Zp6 towards this profile where coffees that are not inherently complex can come off one note though very very clean and tea like.

The 078, depending on the RPM can range from cleaner and more forgiving to defects than the SSP 64mm brew burrs, to a version of the Zp6 profile that is just superior in whatever the Zp6 does. I would describe side by side calibrated brews between the two to be almost an exact same Zp6 brew but a bit higher clarity, a bit more sweetness, a bit more flavor definition but without simulated complexity that would come from a less even extraction.
Rytopa wrote:Higher RPM tend to stretch out the notes more, however for lower quality beans and bad roast, harshness tends to set in. Lowering the RPM compresses the notes more, at the lowest RPM will usually get you the "safest" cup profile.
This is probably the most accurate depiction of the changes of RPM with the 078. Lance has mentioned that RPM for a lot of other flat burr grinders only change the distribution peak but not the spread. I've spoken to him about how I disagree that this would be the case for the 078. He concurred and mentioned that the 078 burr geometry probably allow a more distinct change than just shift of PSD peak that isn't possible to compensate for by adjusting grind setting.

My personal experience with the 078 is that I can use the range of 800-1100 RPM safely though at 1100. I'm personally set at 1050 RPM for most coffees and with the brew setup/recipe I enjoy. 800 RPM can kill some really light roasted coffees for me. "Flattened" or "Compressed" seem to be great descriptors for it.

Finally, I think the Apex is still the superior grinder by far over the 078 at least in terms of unimodality and particle shaping. That beign said, pre-078 I was barely using the Apex to begin with in favor the Zp6. I just found the Apex to come off as a bit too one/two note (a beautiful one note but still one note) for most coffees that don't have that competition grade complexity. The 078 is the first electric grinder I've personally enjoyed for pour overs. I haven't tested any of the even more expensive ones though.

I wouldn't buy the 078 though if electric wasn't a necessity for me or if I didn't have the plan of doing slow-bar popups. The Zp6 really is close enough for most cases.