Iceman2913 wrote:Kyle's review was the reason I had high hopes for the 078s and to be fair, the grinder is probably great or at least good enough for my needs. But other reviews from Lance, home cafe Charlie, and etc cooled my expectations. Just feel like a back and forth to it all that I rather not be a part of when I have a grinder I am legit happy with.

Got it. Thanks. I'm in slightly different spot a I am adding a new espresso machine (Argos) on the other side of my living space, and a grinder next to it would be nice. Also, while I seem to not be a good match for pour over (headaches, and I haven't spent the time to learn it as well as espresso) it would be nice to have a grinder that can do both easily, and one of the upsides of he 078s "small range" for espresso is that you should be able to go from espresso to pour over wihin a single dial rotation (since it doesn't rotate more than once). And since I decommissioned my Mazzer Mini in favor of a Key, I am flat-less. So maybe that is a decent $499 bet for me, still.

I really enjoy my Ode with SSP MP for V60 pour over so the 078 didn't interest me. It didn't seem to be different enough nor better to make me want one. The 078s on the other hand has me more interested. I don't have a flat burr espresso grinder at the moment so I'm looking forward to putting it next to my MC4 with Shurikone and tasting the differences side by side. My wife enjoys coffee with chocolates and big body but currently uses the Ode with SSP MP to make her Moccamaster brews. We have to go very fine to get the flavor she enjoys. I'm thinking the 078s will better suit her taste for filter. I'll probably grab the turbo burrs at some point to play with as well. For $499, it is a no brainer for me to play with. If it nips at the toes of my previous Caedo E37S then its a win in my book.

Iceman2913 wrote:Just this week alone, Lance has done numerous videos, going on Reddit posts and yt reviews leaving his comments that is doing more harm than good now. He has his preference along with the people he tested these with, but all these videos and comments are starting to feel more like damage control. idk.

As someone else said, at least with the zp6 special around launch there was a more general consensus as to what you are getting with people like Coffee Chronicler having similar but reserved thoughts to Lance in regards to the zp6.

Just my opinion, but I think that, moreso than MK/Ditting-inspired flats, ghost/ghost-ish burr performance depends on coffees. That has been my experience with the two ghost burr grinders that I have - the Orphan Espresso Apex and the Fuji-Royal R-440 (not the more common R-220). Every coffee that I've blindly compared between the two has resulted in one of the grinders producing an easily-superior cup than the other, but it took a lot of coffees to find the pattern that lighter roasts of washed high-grown coffees scored higher with the Apex, and medium and darker roasts of the same coffees scored higher with the R-440.

Thus, I'd say that if you drink and like the same coffees that Lance Hedrick drinks and likes, then go with Lance. If you drink and like the same coffees as Asser, then go with Asser. Ditto Kyle, etc. However, I wouldn't put a lot of weight on a one-time one-coffee one-person probably-not-blinded comparison, like Prima's post comparing the Apex and the 78.

Well said. I picked up the ZP6 for a different profile compared to my ode with Gen 2 and ssp mp burrs. I don't mind waiting.

I am kinda in the middle, I literally drink the same coffees and use the same water as Lance but also enjoy coffees that most would consider medium here.

That is the most common sense, down to earth way of really determining the 'best' grinder. Not looks, cost, etc., just your preference. I appreciate the info on the ghost burrs, Apex, and the like. I will always be looking for the ultimate pour over grinder; that will probably be hand powered for me.
Life is so much easier when you don't have disposable income. Dratted first world issues.
I guess that personally I will forego any of theses for now and just concentrate on the bean. I'll pick up some quality, cheaper drippers to assuage my purchase addiction (and continue to salivate over things and spelunk in this deep, dark, tasty hole)

I told someone else in the same situation this: I think the biggest game changer you can make once you have a decent / solid grinder is water. I am not saying go out and buy Lance's water kit but you can improve so much with water and of course nicely roasted beans.

Acavia wrote:Also of note in all this: perhaps upgradidist is not warranted much of the time. If influencers are having to do somersaults in justifying their opinions as to why their newish recommendation is the best yet, it seems self-evident that some of these "influenced" reviews are more tragic than helpful.

I'm pretty careful believing what Lance says, I don't fellow him or watch his channel but it's hard to completely ignore him because he has a lot of minions on Reddit. I've seen how much under the table money gets sent to influencers as I know a few in that space.

Lately, Lance has drawn a hard line with a few companies and really pushes up their sales. The ZP6 from 1Zpresso being one of them. My own experience with the ZP6 was pretty disappointing given all the hype around it. Once a company sees an influencers abilities to drive up sales and hype, it becomes too attractive for businesses. Lance also goes on the offence talking down their competition, he's already taken shots online towards the C60 when he hasn't tried it. Calling out other reviewers if their experience doesn't line up with his. Says he doesn't care for ghost burrs but the 078 turbo burrs are in his top 3. Hyping up the ZP6 again right before another launch by calling it the hand grinder version of the 078 after creating hype around that grinder. It's just a bit too fishy. Personally, I like the Coffee Chronicle, he also said he rushed the review to get it out there before the deadline, which is why he didn't do a more in depth review. Probably best to look at his review as a first impressions video.

My 2c is this is very ungenerous and a different impression than you'd get from following his content, where he states his stuff is just opinions, and what his preferences are. I think there is a little bit of a problem in that because his content is good and thorough, people are thinking they have the same preferences.

For a counterpoint to your comments, he made a post calling out Timemore for the shipping shenanigans. Also, I don't think hate towards Comandante is unusual, there is a lot of it, and for good reason (business practices suing companies, not updating their grinder). I don't think I've seen him "call out" other reviewers, just calrify what his procedure is.

I think Timemore, being Chinese, probably is getting more flak from this because they are a Chinese company. Prima has a bigger conflict of interest than these influencers, given they literally sell the Ode and Ditting grinders, but not the Timemore (who directly skipped the retail channel).

That being said, no person is infallible, and even if an influencer is completely unbiased, it doesn't mean they share your same tastes and preferences. Sometimes people just have different views, and that's why I think things are the way they are. I think Hoffmann was way too harsh on the Ode in his review (after owning this and the Niche, which he highly rates workflow wise). Do I think he was paid off? No, he probably just had a different experience, and has different things he finds frustrating than I do.

Edited it my post because my thoughts are more for the knock box / coffee influencer post.