SSP Lab Sweet 64mm - Page 38

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
DavC

#371: Post by DavC »

I've been using the sweet labs for 3 weeks now. Roughly dialing in 18g/40 out around 27-30sec. But seems to be getting an unpleasant bitterness aftertaste. Anyone expercing the same?

malling

#372: Post by malling » replying to DavC »

Several have reported this actually seems to only happen at high extraction for some. But the good thing is several have reported it vanish after a heavy seasoning of like 15-20kg

iyayy

#373: Post by iyayy »

does lab sweet grinds extracts faster? do you need to change to shorter ratio?

coffeeOnTheBrain

#374: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain »

paulraphael wrote:I'm sure the coffee beans have no idea how the burrs were made. But the difference in geometry looks pronounced. My guess is that this type of geometry can be cast, while others need the kinds of precise sharp teeth you only get from machining. Casting should be a cheaper process ... so if the geometry allows it, manufacturers would likely prefer casting.

A question not answered by this line of reasoning: why aren't cast burrs cheaper?
I disagree respectfully.
In terms of geometry it is quite the opposite as casting gives you way more freedom to design a burr than machining does. With casting you can get basically any angle on all surfaces but the machined ones. You can have concave and convex surfaces. You could even have different angles for each tooth.
With machining you are limited to a regular shape and angles in between the different grinding stages that do not contradict each other.
Of course one could use a CNC machine to give even more flexibility in design, but that would probably double the cost of a burr. Does Kafatek do that, the geometry if their burrs indicate it.
Some decades ago cast was probably cheaper, but with rising energy prices and more advanced tooling I am pretty sure it is no coincidence that most burrs are machined nowadays.
Also cost for a mold are pretty high so you better get it right with the first try and have a large series.

paulraphael

#375: Post by paulraphael »

Maybe someone from the industry could clear this up. Usually, if a part is machined, the machining will determine the surface characteristics. Unless they're just using CNC on portions of the casting (like the teeth), and leaving a rough surface elsewhere.
Primacog wrote:Aren't all cast burrs also needing tp be machined before they can cut? Thus the only difference between cast and fully machined burrs is the character of the metal itself as a result of their different formation origins. As far as I can understand it and as far as it concerns coffee appreciation, the only relevance for different metallurgical origins would pertain to their surface texture and perhaps how fine is the cutting edge imparted ? I recall reading some members here theorising that the rougher texture om the surface of the cast burrs vs fully cnc machined burrs meant the beans were rolled in a more spherical fashion...

paulraphael

#376: Post by paulraphael »

In this case I'm not convinced that any of the shapes in these burrs would be impossible or even challenging to machine. It looks to me like the thing is cast, in a shape with convex grooves and rounded cutouts, sand then has a couple of surfaces ground flat in a quick and simple machining process.

Cost really depends on volume. CNC is much cheaper if you doing a few dozen, because there's no tooling to be built. Casting is much cheaper if you're doing many thousands. It's like digital printing vs. a traditional offset press. With casting or the printing press, most of your costs are concentrated in setting the thing up. Actual production is relatively fast and cheap.

I suppose it's possible that these specialty burrs are made in medium quantities where there isn't a clear winner with regard to cost.
coffeeOnTheBrain wrote:I disagree respectfully.
In terms of geometry it is quite the opposite as casting gives you way more freedom to design a burr than machining does. With casting you can get basically any angle on all surfaces but the machined ones. You can have concave and convex surfaces. You could even have different angles for each tooth.
With machining you are limited to a regular shape and angles in between the different grinding stages that do not contradict each other.
Of course one could use a CNC machine to give even more flexibility in design, but that would probably double the cost of a burr. Does Kafatek do that, the geometry if their burrs indicate it.
Some decades ago cast was probably cheaper, but with rising energy prices and more advanced tooling I am pretty sure it is no coincidence that most burrs are machined nowadays.
Also cost for a mold are pretty high so you better get it right with the first try and have a large series.

bakafish

#377: Post by bakafish »

Maybe someone is willing to compare the E80 machined burrs with the Lab Sweet cast burrs. They both are 80mm and the geometries are similar.
Mahlkönig E80 GBW

coffeeOnTheBrain

#378: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain »

paulraphael wrote:In this case I'm not convinced that any of the shapes in these burrs would be impossible or even challenging to machine. It looks to me like the thing is cast, in a shape with convex grooves and rounded cutouts, sand then has a couple of surfaces ground flat in a quick and simple machining process.

Cost really depends on volume. CNC is much cheaper if you doing a few dozen, because there's no tooling to be built. Casting is much cheaper if you're doing many thousands. It's like digital printing vs. a traditional offset press. With casting or the printing press, most of your costs are concentrated in setting the thing up. Actual production is relatively fast and cheap.

I suppose it's possible that these specialty burrs are made in medium quantities where there isn't a clear winner with regard to cost.
I absolutely agree with everything you said except the first paragraph. Maybe SSP's Instagram post explains my opinion better than I could. I believe that all machined burrs are machined using similar tools as you see in the animation. I am missing the correct technical term, but essentially this is a grinding wheel, which is in comparison to the burr is very large and cuts the whole surface in one continuous motion.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BapsToVhYa- ... MyMTA2M2Y=

While there surly is other tooling to cut metal, none I know could compare in terms of bang for buck. This is also the reason why the EK or Ditting Lab Sweet burrs could not be manufactured using this typical method of machining burrs.

malling

#379: Post by malling »

Primacog wrote:Aren't all cast burrs also needing tp be machined before they can cut? Thus the only difference between cast and fully machined burrs is the character of the metal itself as a result of their different formation origins. As far as I can understand it and as far as it concerns coffee appreciation, the only relevance for different metallurgical origins would pertain to their surface texture and perhaps how fine is the cutting edge imparted ? I recall reading some members here theorising that the rougher texture om the surface of the cast burrs vs fully cnc machined burrs meant the beans were rolled in a more spherical fashion...
All modern cast certainly use machined outer teeth, also I seen many similarities there with machined burrs so I cannot see this as the culprit for any difference as these seem to strike me to be to similar to result in such differences. For example the SSP Cast look a lot like so many other machines SSP burrs in that area of the burr, but it's still remarkable different in the cup.

The breaker area that also feed it to the final fine cutting area dos have some rather different geometry and not at least texture due to formation and origin, yes there where some who theorising that it had an effect of how the beans and larger bean fragment where fed to the final cutting, I also recall I read somewhere or I was told that Mahlkonig/Ditting tried different kind of casting with the Peak burrs to get the right performance and like you I can only think this has something to due with texture and perhaps secondary heat.

You could probably get very close to replicating the geometry that is probably the least tricky bit the M80 burrs is if anything a proof of that. The texture might be a bit more of a challenge and although you could do some I haven't neither seen or heard anyone who done anything in that area. Also none of the many machined burrs I owned showed any indication of the manufacturer given thought of the texture and certainly not replicate the texture of cast, honestly to get that texture I simply think it's just "easier" and cheaper going with the real thing.

Alecfotsch

#380: Post by Alecfotsch »

I saw a review on coffeeadicts.ca for the SSP Lab Sweet burrs where someone got muddy astringent cups until he had seasoned with around 8kg of coffee. I put the full text of Marc's review below. I have some of these on order and can report back about my experience in the DF64.

"These burrs are great but saying they don't require seasoning like other burrs do is a lie. The document from SSP that was inside the box says you should season with 3-5kg of dark roasted coffee. I ground 3.5kg and shimmed the burrs for perfect alignment in my Fellow Ode then made some coffee. The grind size was extremely varied with lots of powder and big pieces. The coffee bed was muddy and cups were always astringent. I read that these burrs required up to 25lbs to be seasoned so I ground another 4.5kg of dark roast. Afterwards the grounds looked much more uniform in their size and the cups of coffee tasted vastly better. The burrs produce amazing cups of coffee with big body and sweetness and a balanced acidity. Now it seems impossible for me to get astringent cups even when grinding super fine. I'm happy with the burrs and the coffee profile from them but having to grind 8kg of coffee before being able to get anything tasty from them is absurd. In addition to the price of the burrs I spent almost $200 on bags of Costco coffee that I have no intention of ever drinking and several hours grinding those bags.
In the end I still recommend these burrs and I'm happy with my purchase but you should know what you're getting into when you buy."