Pietro by Fiorenzato - vertical flat-burr manual grinders - Page 4

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
thecoffeefield

#31: Post by thecoffeefield »

malling wrote:I don't really think it's hating when you question design choices, or when something like this can easily be predicted that it moves when grinding. Many here has years of expertise with grinders including handgrinders, it wasn't much of surprise it didn't stay put under grinding, it where already correctly guessed in one of the first posts.

If you used enough grinders eventually you get a good idea of what works and what doesn't, just looking at pictures of one you can almost predict it's pros and cons. Grinders are relatively simple devices and they all follows certain design, there isn't really much new off so to speak.

Pointing out when something is cutting corners, design flaw or less optimal design I don't think equal hating.

But I really think this should have a base it's a bit of predictable design flaw, anyone ever grinding with larger burrs by hand knows these need heft or be locked down to prevent this.
Being in this hobby for 10 years or so now, I learned not to worry about these things too much. What really matters at the end of day, to me at least, are 2 things: 1) User Experience and 2) Taste. The user experience on this is 90% there, it's just missing some form of a stabilizing base. People went out of their way to create all sort of 3D accessories just to make their beloved (and excellent value) DF64 works better. People should just do the same here and print a 3D base or CNC one for 75 bucks or so and you should be all set

The taste was excellent, considering it's a manual and versatile grinder for under $400. Sure you can buy a DF64 for $400 but you can't travel with it, at least not conveniently. Just my 2 cents. I'm not affiliated with Fiorenzato or anyone else, just think that they make excellent products. I also respect it when people take a chance and do something different.

Gummipferd

#32: Post by Gummipferd »

another_jim wrote:The burrs look a lot less aggressive than standard 64s, with a more oblique grinding angle, and a larger intake section. That is why it is easy to turn. My guess is replacing these with SSP burrs, especially the MP, would turn it into a torture machine. In any case, the screw placement looks lit that would not be possible.
I don't think this is correct.
I happen to own one of those Bonafabrica grinders with MP burrs. There are a number of drawback to this grinder usability-wise. BUT it is incredibly easy to crank. Way easier than any conical handgrinder I own (Kinu M47, Comandante, Feldgrind, Aergrind).

malling

#33: Post by malling »

thecoffeefield wrote:Being in this hobby for 10 years or so now, I learned not to worry about these things too much. What really matters at the end of day, to me at least, are 2 things: 1) User Experience and 2) Taste. The user experience on this is 90% there, it's just missing some form of a stabilizing base. People went out of their way to create all sort of 3D accessories just to make their beloved (and excellent value) DF64 works better. People should just do the same here and print a 3D base or CNC one for 75 bucks or so and you should be all set

The taste was excellent, considering it's a manual and versatile grinder for under $400. Sure you can buy a DF64 for $400 but you can't travel with it, at least not conveniently. Just my 2 cents. I'm not affiliated with Fiorenzato or anyone else, just think that they make excellent products. I also respect it when people take a chance and do something different.
When you toss in a motor at a similar price point I do think such is expected and you are probably more willing to accept such shortcomings in design, as cutting corners and flaws are to some degree to be expected when manufacturers try to get the resale price that low. Why I also live with all the issues the Fellow Ode has or mod those I could not live with.

But with hand grinders you cut off all those expenses you otherwise would have in electronics, that means more funds that potentially can be directed at every other aspect of the grinder, at this price I demand to see a better build then a similar priced electric grinder and definitely prefer it not to move that much, as I do believe should have been possible for a €300 hand grinder.

Perhaps I'm more sceptical because I use the lightest roast and it tend to multiply ever issue there is in a grinder. So moving grinders tend to be a bit of a headache.

I actually asked for a flat handgrinder for years, so it's indeed welcome addition but I also still want value for money. But I look forward to review Lance Hedrick should do this.

Janika79

#34: Post by Janika79 »

When Kafatek introduces a new conical burr set for 450 dollars most people are immediately excited, praise the innovation and are willing to buy it without having tried it. But when an Italian manufacturer brings a new flat hand grinder to the market it's too expensive, bad designed and full of flaws. Nobody seems to be to believe that Fiorenzato tested their product before releasing it. The lack of objectivity is really obvious here and hard to swallow sometimes. Please try it yourself and then comment.

jbviau
Supporter ★

#35: Post by jbviau »

^^^ :roll:

I'd like to hear more about taste with the filter burrs eventually, if possible (TIA).
"It's not anecdotal evidence, it's artisanal data." -Matt Yglesias

ojt

#36: Post by ojt replying to jbviau »

Yeah this went sideways fast. Anyway, I count myself cautiously optimistic. I have my doubts, which I'm voicing, but this product would potentially work well for me because I can tuck it away in a cupboard when not in use.

So far everything in here are opinions and / or hunches. No need to call the "hate card" because there was none and no one here can be really objective (other than based on prior experience with similar stuff) before really testing the product.

Me too I'd like to hear about taste and see an actual review :) Perhaps even test one myself.
Osku

malling

#37: Post by malling »

Janika79 wrote:When Kafatek introduces a new conical burr set for 450 dollars most people are immediately excited, praise the innovation and are willing to buy it without having tried it. But when an Italian manufacturer brings a new flat hand grinder to the market it's too expensive, bad designed and full of flaws. Nobody seems to be to believe that Fiorenzato tested their product before releasing it. The lack of objectivity is really obvious here and hard to swallow sometimes. Please try it yourself and then comment.
To that Kafatek, option-o and co. has actually build up a reputation by providing product that in the past where well designed, build, precisely aligned with low retention so no wonder people are less sceptical, they are just harvesting the fruit of their labour.

Majority of Italian manufactures however have yet to toss a single grinder model on the market that repeatedly is much beyond passable in terms of alignment and retention, so the difference in reaction isn't without reason. All the Italian grinder I ever seen and used needed serious alignment and mods where definitely necessary for SD. The moment I see one that doesn't need serious alignment and modding I praise them for it, but I cannot give credit for something I never seen or experienced, the same goes for Mahlkonig and Ditting by the way, but at least they seem to have improved somewhat over the last few years, the same goes for Eureka.

It had nothing really to do with it being Italian or wherever these are made but about reputation, when you have less then great reputation for living up to that, obviously you never get the benefit of doubt. You need to earn the trust of your (potential) customers it doesn't generally come all by itself and for free.

It's no different in this field then in any other.

And even then if they screw up you see some reaction Weber Workshop Key anyone.

Also something that moves that is designed to sit on a counter top, is obviously not designed as well as it could. Everything else might be okay we will know soon enough, but the lack of base is a flaw in design no matter who makes it, you need to use energy holding it down something that easily been prevented with a proper base, it's not like such base cost a fortune to make. €300 makes this into a top priced hand grinder there really should be possible to provide such for that price, I don't think it's much to ask for or at least offer it as a cheap add on. Also the €300 is introduction pricing it probably end higher later on. No one expect this to be super duper aligned, I certainly don't I would not demand that it is, just as long as it's better then an Ode and slight more rigid in construction and has lower retention at espresso the I personally think it's well wort the price, but the lack of base for a counter top grinder is mind bugging, this isn't really a travel grinder, unless your in a car, auto camber.

ojt

#38: Post by ojt »

For pricing and product positioning I would actually group this more with Kinu M68, HG-1/2 etc. Not with Kinu M47, Comandante et al. So, IMHO this is a cheap countertop hand grinder, potentially really good in cup, with flat burrs (if that matters anything) and a few caveats. Am I seeing this wrong / different than others?
Osku

Jonk

#39: Post by Jonk »

Gummipferd wrote:I happen to own one of those Bonafabrica grinders with MP burrs. There are a number of drawback to this grinder usability-wise. BUT it is incredibly easy to crank. Way easier than any conical handgrinder I own (Kinu M47, Comandante, Feldgrind, Aergrind).
Thank you for clearing that up. I keep reading claims that flat hand grinders are supposedly difficult to crank, while first hand reports have been in line with yours.

boren (original poster)

#40: Post by boren (original poster) »

Flat burr grinders require high RPM. It's only expected that at low RPM they would be slow to grid the coffee and therefore easier to crank. At least my recent tests with manual grinders (granted, conical burr ones) show that fast grinders require more effort and that slow grinders are easier to crank (and I exclude from this conclusion the one grinder that doesn't use ball bearings).