Bluecold wrote:Between the required RDT, manual labor and the ensuing required WDT, I beg to differ. The ergonomics of the HG-One can only be described as awful.

Nice to hear that someone who hasn't used one of both grinders knows better than the ones who have used both .

prof_stack wrote:Wow, such emotion for a simple hand grinder! TomC, you are so passionate!

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Too say that the HG-1 is clearly superior in almost every way is hyperbole, and deserves an IMHO or YMMV afterwards. Someone who owns and uses both would be in a better position to pontificate.
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Not overtly passionate, just getting frustrated hearing the same nonsense over and over. And I think if you had a large panel of testers decide the matter AND COMPLETELY IGNORE MAKER LOYALTY, it would be easily shown that the HG-One works better in all regards. It's faster, it's cleaner, it's requires a less awkward rotation pattern. It's more stable, it's easier to clean. I have used both, so I'm not pontificating.

Nobody likes to be overly critical of the Pharos because it seems like an attack on OE. And Doug's awesome, he's like one of the cool ZZ Top guys who's a mad engineering genius who loves coffee things. You can't knock him or Barb for anything. But their product is clearly inferior to the HG-One in most regards.

I've listed a fair criticism of the HG-One since Day 1. I was the first person to point out its static problem, the first person to point out its donut extraction problem. And, I made several comments to folks that it felt like the base was too small and could walk around on the counter, especially when grinding light roasted beans. It's far from perfect, but with very little effort, it's a great deal better now.

I couldn't care less if someone subjectively likes the Pharos more. Good for them! Just don't try to pass it off as some objective fact. All I care about is that people quit banging the drum that the HG-One needs to be WDT'd for proper shot extraction. It's just not true anymore. I just sold my Cremina's bottomless pf, since I felt like I didn't really need it anymore and it had less value to me sitting on my counter unused, but if I'd kept it, now would be the time I'd video its use with the HG-One and a simple paper cup.

prof_stack wrote: I have used both the HG-1 and the Pharos, at FotonDrv's house. I didn't find the degree of labor involved much different at all

That Pharos you show in your photo is hardly stock. How many mods have been made to improve on the "as stock" ergonomics? I've owned both & I have to agree with Tom; as far as ease of use goes there is no comparison between a stock Pharos & the HG-One IMO. Just hanging onto the Pharos while grinding had my hands aching, never mind the issues with the early versions.

Many Pharos owners have close to $500 tied up in their grinder after installing the popular mods to improve the way it works. Something to keep in mind when you are looking at the cost of the HG-One.

When I hear ergonomics, I think of the tactile interface between human and machine.
All this talk about WDT\RDT\GrindRetention are involved in the process of grinding and workflow efficiency, but have little to nothing to do with that tactile interface to the grinder DURING grinding. Furthermore, ergonomic human factors have a bias on looking at the repeated\repetitive movements that a human experiences when operating said machine.

In the case of a hand grinder, its obvious, to me at least, that ergonomics primarially refers to the cranking of the handle and how one holds the grinder to resist the torque created by grinding beans.

having said all that, and i wont even begin to speculate on the hg-one, as I only own the pharos;
It is my personal opinion that the as-sold, bone stock, pharos is pretty crappy in the ergonomics region. (i have significantly modded mine to help)

Holding the grinder;
You can sort of hold the outer burr and apply downward pressure, but there's little room to fit large hands inside (mine). The outer burr is also too large to get a good grip for people with smaller hands (eg my wife). The bolt covers provide another method to hold on to the machine, but they are small and really dig into the inside of the knuckles on fingers. Furthermore, if you hold onto the bolt covers, you must then react the torque with your wrist\forearm and the palm of your hand being braced against the very thin top or middle plate.

This later method of holding onto the grinder bolt covers is what I prefer as I have machined larger diameter bolt covers that are more comfortable to hold on to. I add padding to the palm of my hand in the form of a folded up dish towel, so the top plate doesnt dig into my palm. I have also permanently glued on the rubber base pad to the machine for a little added stability, but even when trying my hardest, the machine still rocks and wobbles across my counter.

My wife is totally unable to hold the grinder on the counter top and has to resort to using this as a knee mill. You can tell by her cranking, using two hands on the handle, and the amount of body movement, and struggling to keep a constant cranking motion going, its uncomfortable and insecure for her to hold between her legs. Extremely poor ergonomics.

Cranking ergonomics;
The big rubber handle is actually nice. Provides a comfortable non-stressing grip for me. However, the grip is a little short in relation to the handle, and on occasion, i scrape my knuckles on the rotating handle below it.
Additionally, because I hold the grinder with my palm against the top plate, I occasionally scrape the top of my palm with the bottom of the cranking lever arm. There's just not enough clearance here for how I use\hold the grinder and grinding handle to prevent any contact with my person during cranking. Very poor ergonomically.


Ergonomics, imo, and in comparison to my zass grinder, are EXTREMELY crappy.
But the thing grinds a mean grind, at a good pricepoint, and thats why people love it. (again, in my opinion)

I wont even go into the matter of the stock pharos retention and getting grinds out of it, but suffice it to say, I found the stock setup equally poor and have modded it with my own grounds catcher bracket and bowl.

I also find I need to use RDT, (so thats not a benefit I see compared to the one person claiming it is over the HG1) with drier or darker roasted beans. I have found WDT to be largely not needed as I dose into a grounds catcher bowl and dose the grinds from there into the PF using a steel canning funnel. Occasionally clumps show up between the catcher bowl and pf basket that I will then breakup with a needle just to be thorough\consistent. This happens ~15% of the time.
The grinds are not, I repeat NOT, as fluffy as they are on my zass grinder, which has never experienced a single clump or static issue in the hundreds of shots Ive ground with it over the past ~4 years.

Lastly, I think it is an excellent point john b made about being certain you are comparing apples to apples and realizing that a modded pharos does not necessarily have the same ergonomics \ workflow efficiency as the as-sold OE Pharos.

erik82 wrote:Nice to hear that someone who hasn't used one of both grinders knows better than the ones who have used both .

Well, lets use your experience.

erik82 wrote:The following methods gave me really bad poors:
- Grinding into the blind tumbler and transfer the grounds to the basket without stirring
- Grinding directly into the portafilter using the tall OE funnel without stirring the grounds
- Grinding ino the blind tumbler and stirring only once

Also tried grinding directly into the basket withe the tall OE funnel like Paul does but this takes me much more time then my normal routing because the grounds settle below the rim of the basket after stirring with a whisk making distibution hard.

My normal routine is grinding into the blind tumbler and stirring 3 times round with a little whisk. Then dump the grinds into the basket, distribute and tamp. This method gives me very good poors every time.

So there's an inconsistency in your statements. I claimed that WDT was necessary to use the HG-One, I based that on the user experiences I've read in the HG-One thread. You also stated that WDT is needed (multiple times). TomC says WDT is not needed. And now you say I'm wrong and Tom is right because I've never used the HG-One, while I'm merely restating what you've said yourself in these very forums.
Make up your mind on the necessity of the WDT for the HG-One and stop taking cheap shots.

And again, I'm not defending the Pharos here in any way. I'm just taking issue with the statement that the ergonomics of the HG-One are unbeatable.

I never fully replied to your first remark, but I meant to. And since you bring it up again, I'll do so now. My point was that the ergonomics of the HG-One was unbeatable by the Pharos. Since that is the debate we're having. It was never a claim that the HG-One was perfect or couldn't be improved upon. My own mod thread will bear that out.

And like I said earlier on, ergonomics isn't the same as procedure or tasks to prepare the coffee, people are mixing terms. The stock handle on the HG-One is quite a bit more comfortable and easy to turn than the stock Pharos. The stock HG-One is also easier to hold down and use than the stock Pharos. Those, to me, define the ergonomic benefit of the HG-One over the Pharos. The rest of the argument is basically a judgment call on their prospective use.

And, just because something gets regurgitated over and over, doesn't make it factual. On the original thread, after posting the results of using a simple paper cup, there was still an abundance of posts hammering away about how much WDT'ing the basket needed to pull properly, even though, they were going back to the silly aluminum bell or using something else to stir the grounds. Yet, I don't honesty recall too many people actually reporting back after trying the paper cup version where you just shake it gently before pouring. That's the point were I start banging my head into the wall or just ignoring the thread.

I'd ask anyone contributing to this thread to keep on point and not let it drift off into personal attacks. Attack the argument, not the member. I'd hate to see an open and lively debate of these two products locked up due to venom spitting.

coffeesnob1 wrote:Anyone have first-hand experience with both the hg-one and Pharos to say which takes the least effort to crank? I've seen the discussions on the 71 vs 83 as far as crank ability on the HG's, but haven't seen the 2 compared. Thanks.

Heh, the OP only asked about crank ability!

This thread sure spun out of control, with static everywhere!

prof_stack wrote:Heh, the OP only asked about crank ability!

This thread sure spun out of control, with static everywhere!

Yes, everyone give themselves a light misting of water please!

Bluecold wrote:So there's an inconsistency in your statements. I claimed that WDT was necessary to use the HG-One, I based that on the user experiences I've read in the HG-One thread. You also stated that WDT is needed (multiple times). TomC says WDT is not needed. And now you say I'm wrong and Tom is right because I've never used the HG-One, while I'm merely restating what you've said yourself in these very forums.
Make up your mind on the necessity of the WDT for the HG-One and stop taking cheap shots.

And again, I'm not defending the Pharos here in any way. I'm just taking issue with the statement that the ergonomics of the HG-One are unbeatable.

I've never stated that you don't need to use WDT, TomC has so there isn't inconsistency in my statement. [anonymized] doesn't need to use RDT but I have to. Been to [anonymized] a couple of times and it is clear that with the HG One I'm producing much more static than [anonymized] is. I'm the guy that's getting shocks from touching his car every day so it's also dependent on the person cranking and of course climate. The last couple of days there's much less static with the warmer weather.

The first post you quoted was a couple of days after I got the HG One and the burrs weren't worn in. Poors are much better now with the burrs worn in. My routine needs WDT and TomC's routine doesn't need WDT. I like the blind tumbler, TomC hates it. Personal preference and dependent on the routine you use.

Cranking the HG One is real easy and doesn't take much effort due to the design. I'll mod the HG One like TomC did to try and stop the HG One running around on the counter which improves the design. This will make the cranking even easier.