Niche Zero: One year in review - Page 2
- HB
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Agreed. And to encourage more nuanced discussion of Lance's video, which I admit is a bit long for my taste, I've generated an excerpted transcript below. My takeaway is that Lance believes the Niche Zero workflow is fantastic and it's ideal for those who like medium-to-dark roasted coffee for their espresso. It's not well suited for espresso with lighter roasted coffee and can't do filter coffee.LewBK wrote:Instead of ad hominem attacks on Hendricks, which I always find lame in any format, why not address the specific points of his critique?
Spoiler: show
Dan Kehn
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I think he brings up some good points that people didn't really talk about until fairly recently. I'll start by saying I agree with most of what he says, and I formed this opinion through my own use of the grinder before the video came out. Don't get me wrong, I think the Niche is a great grinder for people who want more traditional espresso. It had the best workflow by far of any grinder I've ever used, and if you're after those caramel and chocolate notes with big body, it's the perfect grinder. I think the main issue is that people oversell what it can do- in my experience, if I used anything lighter than a medium-dark, the Niche blended the flavors so much that a lot of beans ended up tasting pretty similar. This isn't a flat vs conical thing, I've had espresso made with other conical grinders that handle lighter roasts much better than the Niche did, I think the Niche's burrs are just particularly blending. In my opinion the Niche isn't the right choice for a lot of people, but it was being recommended as the ultimate grinder for them anyways.
I find it ironic that people are criticizing him for apologizing for a controversial opinion in the same thread that people are attacking him for said opinion. He clearly struck a nerve with this one, but as someone who owned a Niche I don't think anything he said was much of a reach.
I find it ironic that people are criticizing him for apologizing for a controversial opinion in the same thread that people are attacking him for said opinion. He clearly struck a nerve with this one, but as someone who owned a Niche I don't think anything he said was much of a reach.
- another_jim
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Summary of the the Review: After praising the Niche's ergonomics, he asserts the standard "conical = more forgiving" versus "flat = more transparent" narrative. This is justified by references to particle distributions as well his own tasting. Given that he spent a year with it; and it conforms to many other people's experience; there is no need to denounce the video as a waste of time.
Comments: The particle distribution comparisons for conicals versus flats are true for the regular brewing range; and the Niche sucks for brewed coffee, as do all the commercial conicals (Konys, Roburs, and all the 68mm conicals). It is an espresso only grinder.
However, in the espresso range, most flat burrs also widen out. For instance, the 75mm Eureka burrs have just as big a sweet spot as conical burrs. Moreover, given fine grinds and high extraction yield, even the coarsest particles will be highly extracted. However, some flats can produce very high quality Turkish grinds (almost every particle close to a fine), and these are more suitable for very light roasts. If you want to specialize on these coffees, and have the money for the very large flats, that is the way to go.
As to the Etzinger burrs. Here you have a flat out whopper. In the espresso range, they have massive sweet spots, and produce what could be called "ultra-conical shots" I found this to be true for the Sette and for LM's Mini Swift; and can't see it being different on the Euro-Breville he mentions.
Comments: The particle distribution comparisons for conicals versus flats are true for the regular brewing range; and the Niche sucks for brewed coffee, as do all the commercial conicals (Konys, Roburs, and all the 68mm conicals). It is an espresso only grinder.
However, in the espresso range, most flat burrs also widen out. For instance, the 75mm Eureka burrs have just as big a sweet spot as conical burrs. Moreover, given fine grinds and high extraction yield, even the coarsest particles will be highly extracted. However, some flats can produce very high quality Turkish grinds (almost every particle close to a fine), and these are more suitable for very light roasts. If you want to specialize on these coffees, and have the money for the very large flats, that is the way to go.
As to the Etzinger burrs. Here you have a flat out whopper. In the espresso range, they have massive sweet spots, and produce what could be called "ultra-conical shots" I found this to be true for the Sette and for LM's Mini Swift; and can't see it being different on the Euro-Breville he mentions.
Jim Schulman
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Calling someone a dolt on the internet is pretty cringe-worthy, itself.EvanOz85 wrote:Couldn't get through the video. He seems to spend the majority of the time apologizing for what might be perceived as a negative opinion of the grinder. Absolutely cringe-worthy. Why are these YouTube dolts so afraid of having an honest opinion?
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So you don't read and listen to reviews to "make up your own mind" before purchasing something? Especially something you have to spend $800 on?baristainzmking wrote:I could never figure this out either. People take their opinions as gospel, but all they are just opinions. And we know what they say about opinions... make up your own mind.
You say that as though your opinion should be taken as gospel.baristainzmking wrote: If you enjoy medium to dark roasted coffees and chocolaty, nutty, caramel flavors with heavy mouthfeel - Niche is one of the best bangs for your buck.
I guess I just don't get the criticism. Lance is putting out quality, informative content that people really appreciate. He's probably helped a large number of people make a decision they've been struggling with prior to spending their money. He spends a lot of time responding to comments and questions and appears to be a pretty genuine guy with a lot of integrity. So you don't trust his opinion. Fine. But I don't see why people come down on the content providers and especially their audience of people who are trying to learn from other's experiences.
- cafeIKE
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Some would beg to differ.jdrobison wrote:I guess I just don't get the criticism. Lance is putting out quality, informative content that people really appreciate. He's probably helped a large number of people make a decision they've been struggling with prior to spending their money. He spends a lot of time responding to comments and questions and appears to be a pretty genuine guy with a lot of integrity. So you don't trust his opinion. Fine. But I don't see why people come down on the content providers and especially their audience of people who are trying to learn from other's experiences.
The 20 minute video could be summed in one line "Lance likes other grinders for the coffees he likes brewed on a sub par machine"
- assuming the Breville is what he used to evaluate.
There is insufficient additional information to support the conclusion.
e.g. Does LH always brew a cold murky lungo:
Four+ years in, the Niche is a great espresso grinder, easy to use, 100% repeatable. Compared to the half dozen pro quality flat and conical grinders I've owned over the past twenty years for the coffees I enjoy, Hedrick does no one any favors. Typical of this type of video is a complete lack of rigor to support the conclusion. With an organic product like coffee that changes with time and ambient conditions, it's possible to be fooled by randomness.
Ian's Coffee Stuff
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- thesharpener
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I think Lance's video could have used some post-production editing, and maybe script because he wasn't particularly efficient with his words (it could be that he needed to make the video a certain length to help monetize it on youtube, although I know nothing about how that works). I don't really watch these sort of videos, so not sure if this sort of excessive monologue is normal. This is more a critique of the video itself, and not the actual information presented (which could have been covered quite quickly).
I thought the core content was valuable, and Lance Hedrick seems to be a credible voice in the industry, but I don't really know for sure. The fact that he used the Niche for a year before disclosing his opinion makes me think he has tested it sufficiently for his views to be a good data point for anyone considering purchasing one.
I think he went too far in trying to not offend Niche fans and potential buyers with all of the "just my opinion" statements. He probably could have just said that the information was his opinion, and that there are some things about the Niche that he loves, and others that aren't for him (and of course why he feels this way).
His comparison to golf/golf clubs was not good.
He brewed an espresso somewhere in the last third of the video without going into detail of his workflow and parameters (aside from ratio). I would have liked to know what exactly he was brewing, what temp/time/pressure he brewed at, what it tastes like when brewed with his preferred grinder, and what he was tasting coming out of the Niche.
I thought the core content was valuable, and Lance Hedrick seems to be a credible voice in the industry, but I don't really know for sure. The fact that he used the Niche for a year before disclosing his opinion makes me think he has tested it sufficiently for his views to be a good data point for anyone considering purchasing one.
I think he went too far in trying to not offend Niche fans and potential buyers with all of the "just my opinion" statements. He probably could have just said that the information was his opinion, and that there are some things about the Niche that he loves, and others that aren't for him (and of course why he feels this way).
His comparison to golf/golf clubs was not good.
He brewed an espresso somewhere in the last third of the video without going into detail of his workflow and parameters (aside from ratio). I would have liked to know what exactly he was brewing, what temp/time/pressure he brewed at, what it tastes like when brewed with his preferred grinder, and what he was tasting coming out of the Niche.
Is the BDB a sub-par machine? I thought home espresso enthusiasts thought really highly of it due to the temperature stability and ability to modify for flow control/slayer style shots, etc.cafeIKE wrote:...brewed on a sub par machine" - assuming the Breville is what he used to evaluate.
Pete - LMWDP #572
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I've edited some posts above consistent with the site's Guidelines for productive online discussion. I'm sure contributors to this thread already know, but as a general reminder, they include "Be respectful", "Encourage positive, shared discourse", and "Help raise the discussion level." The thread is on cooldown; please enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Dan Kehn
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I have two friends who had them, purchased almost simultaneously about 10 years ago. Both suffered infant failures and were returned for service. One did not get back his original machine, but one that was clearly used and not used well.thesharpener wrote:Is the BDB a sub-par machine?
Steam capability was anemic.
Both machines suffered early [< 3 years] o-ring seal failures and leaked all over the place. After repairing the failed seals, similar failures in an even shorter time frame.
After the second failures, both replaced the BDB with e61 from different manufacturers.
Both [paraphrasing] said "I wish I'd taken your advice in the first place. There's no comparison to the ease, shot quality and consistency." Same grinders.
In my nearly 30 years [2 machines x ≈15 years] of Vibiemme HX & DB ownership, one failure. This year, the controller failed on the DB due to poor placement. With the replacement controller now in a better location, I expect it to outlast me.
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I added this comment to his YouTube presentation so I'll add it here. You can hack the Niche Zero by purchasing a NON_LED light dimmer switch that can handle the wattage of the Niche, then with courage cut the power cord 2/3rd's the way up to the machine. Then wire in the two wire from the machine into the dimmer and the two wires from the power cord into the dimmer and voila - you have a variable speed Niche Zero grinder.