New Timemore Sculptor Grinders 064 064s 078 078s - Page 86

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
Jonk
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#851: Post by Jonk »

To clarify what I meant, I've had a few Kenyans by now that tasted amazing with SSP MPv1, while not undrinkable by any means with the 078 they completely lost all sparkle.

I've seen a few people suggest that the 078 excel with naturals and I tend to agree after using it for 4 months. There are always exceptions of course. I can add that the worst cups with the 078 have been quite a bit better than the worst cups with SSP MP.

JayBeck
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#852: Post by JayBeck »

I've used the following filter grinders:

SSP MPv2 in a DF64v, Ode v2 (Gen 2 burrs), Pietro with Pro Brewing (Lance) Burrs, 1ZPresso K Plus, and now the 078. 078 Burrs are not seasoned, I've only made a couple of cups. I also do not have all of these burrs at the same time but here are some comments:

SSP MP vs Pietro vs K Plus vs Ode Gent 2
I've done this side by side numerous times. The Pietro was consistently the best cup, both in the way it presents acidity via a wonderful 'juiciness' that is always lacking from MP burrs. MP burrs have the appearance of better clarity because they are 'flat.' Not to this extent, but almost like a Soda that has lost its carbonation and you taste just how sweet it really is and it's not enjoyable. MP burrs do this whether good or bad. I would always rather have that exciting and vibrate juicy acidity presentation than a flat, clear taste. Likewise on the mouthfeel, as they are linked. K Plus always makes a good cup. I know it's not ZP6 but it is a comparable grinder for folks out there with a Commandante or Moonshine Burr Lagom Mini. I find the Ode Gen 2 similar to the K Plus. It presents acidity better being a Flat Burr Grinder but it's no where near the quality the MP or Pietro are in that realm. These are wide sweet spot burr style that do well with basically anything you throw at them. These cups are not juicy at all, they have decent clarity but can become astringent like MP so you have to be careful. Pietro really doesn't ever become astringent. I find it has a super wide sweet spot and I have found zero weaknesses. Like, Uber light roast Nordic or a funky natural, or even a dark decaf coffee -- Pietro just does everything well and for 1-2 cups I just highly, highly recommend it.

I've sold SSP, Ode, K Plus. I just took possession of 078.

Initial Impressions of Pietro vs 078
I've done about 4 coffees now. I don't think Pietro is seasoned and I know 078 isn't so this will develop over time. I've settled on these 2 grinders long term so more will come here. Pietro is the best filter hand grinder money can buy so I travel with it plus use it at home (where Key does my espresso grinds and Pietro 1-2 cup filter cups). It's my benchmark. 078 has some things going for it that make it unique, namley the fines collector. I don't think any other grinder offers this type of set up to truly control fines. It can collect 0.5-1.0g easily and if you touch them you can tell how powder what it's holding back is compared to what comes through. This is a major feature. You can choose to grind like every other grinder and have it all or you can opt to 'sift' out some of the fines to get a different cup.

In an example yesterday, I brewed a pink bourbon Colombian from September Coffee. Pietro absolutely nailed it. Juicy, sweet, lingering cup with absolutely zero astringency on the finish from hot to cold. Just an amazing cup. 078 I held back grinds and for the first time ever with this coffee I got grassy, under developed notes. Was this because these burrs are revealing something the Pietro is hiding? Or is it because I 'held back' the fines? I brewed a second cup and yes, the added fines removed essentially all of the grassy notes. It still wasn't as good as Pietro but these are almost new burrs and I don't think I was grinding fine enough to begin with.

So my initial impressions are that it's going to be an amazing grinder and probably the BEST electric filter grinder money can buy until you get to an EG1 ULF, Max CR, EK43, Lagom 98/102 Mizen, or any of the bulk grinders with elite brew burrs that aren't suitable for home use -- even then, I'm not sure the leap is great or even distinguishable for most of us. The ability to have control over fines production could open up a new door of dialing in (remember -- FINES AREN'T NECESSARILY BAD).

I brewed my first 078 v60 today. Went too fine (flow was good but at the end is slowed to a drip but finish, but not super muddy considering i was so fine; I did use fines collector and held out many fines) but had zero astringency. This is a very good sign. Until now, of the grinders I've listed above only the Pietro has been able to produce cup after cup of non-astringent coffee when grinding too fine. This is a testament to the quality of grinds produce, not over extracting so much that you get that drying, nasty finish on what otherwise was a nice tasting cup of coffee.

I'm at 1,000 RPM. I'm going to learn this grinder first before playing with RPM. I need to understand how much grind adjustment affects flow / extraction (they say 4-8 for pourover on the guide), and the impact using the fines collector is on the final cups produced.

Pietro is still king for me, but I see great potential in 078. I'm very glad I sold the Ode to get this. The build quality is far superior, I think it looks better, and more importantly, the ceiling for excellent coffee should be sufficiently higher for it to claim the title of the best electric filter grinder before diminishing returns blah blah blah.

Cheers!

Milligan
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#853: Post by Milligan »

jdrobison wrote:I'm only 1 week in with the 078 but the last few cups have more clarity than the Ode V2. I'm almost exclusively into bright and floral and I think this grinder lends itself pretty well to that. It does catch quite a few fines - I was surprised when I compared what came out of the knocker to what was in the dosing container - which seems to be giving it the advantage for me. I was going to compare the grind quality against the Ode with my Kruve but my wife already took the Ode to work :lol: Judging them visually though... The 078 appears to be more consistent.
What is it with wives stealing Odes? My wife put my Ode + SSP MP right next to her Moccamaster and my mom ended up with my Gen 1 and loves it.

I've actually gone to not using RDT at all with the 078 because this allows the knocker to catch more fines. The first grinder I've had where static is your friend. I keep finding myself going coarser and coarser on the 078 with better and better cups.

JayBeck
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#854: Post by JayBeck »

Milligan wrote:I keep finding myself going coarser and coarser on the 078 with better and better cups.
Interestingly, I'm doing the exact same thing. Started at a 4, now to a 7, and I'm continuing to go coarser each cup to see how the cup evolves. Loving the grinder so far!

Milligan
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#855: Post by Milligan replying to JayBeck »

I'm usually around a 8-9 for TW light and ended up at 11.5 for an El Salvador honey process medium/light. All on V60s. I bumped against astringency at finer grind levels. Draw down in 3:45-4min. That is with no RDT and removing the dose cup before using the knocker to separate the fines. I haven't opened it up or adjusted the calibration at all from the factory. Not sure if they can be compared directly.

Have you messed with the RPM at all? I think I have mine around 1000 and haven't messed with it anymore.

JayBeck
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#856: Post by JayBeck replying to Milligan »

Good to know on grind sizes! What is your pouring technique? I'm using v60 too, doing the Hoffman 3 pour technique (50 / 100 / 100). My draw downs are around 2:45 but it's still not where I'd like it. I've got some of Rao's Colombian right now with cherry and citrus notes.

Jonk
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#857: Post by Jonk »

Milligan wrote:I haven't opened it up or adjusted the calibration at all from the factory. Not sure if they can be compared directly.
I think alignment can easily account for 2 clicks variance and if the grinder is not calibrated another 1-3 or more.
It's very simple to calibrate, but the pin only moves in whole numbers so sometimes 0 will be about 1 click off like on mine right now: 8.5 is actually 9 and if I'd flip both burrs and put it back to factory calibration it would be more like 10-11.

So only rough comparison.

It has been claimed that high rpm is more consistent because it ramps up slowly on the lowest settings. I still prefer to use it at 800, with the fines and also RDT (because it seems to affect how the beans grind, there's no practical need)

jdrobison
Posts: 320
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#858: Post by jdrobison »

Milligan wrote:What is it with wives stealing Odes? My wife put my Ode + SSP MP right next to her Moccamaster and my mom ended up with my Gen 1 and loves it.

I've actually gone to not using RDT at all with the 078 because this allows the knocker to catch more fines. The first grinder I've had where static is your friend. I keep finding myself going coarser and coarser on the 078 with better and better cups.
Funny!

Same. No RDT and the fines that it catches are pretty significant. I'm drinking a Burundi right now and am all the way up at 12 and still getting plenty of sweetness. I do a 2 min pre-wet at 160F and then 2 pours through a Melodrip, each of which draws down in 1 min.

Milligan
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#859: Post by Milligan »

Jonk wrote:I think alignment can easily account for 2 clicks variance and if the grinder is not calibrated another 1-3 or more.
It's very simple to calibrate, but the pin only moves in whole numbers so sometimes 0 will be about 1 click off like on mine right now: 8.5 is actually 9 and if I'd flip both burrs and put it back to factory calibration it would be more like 10-11.

So only rough comparison.

It has been claimed that high rpm is more consistent because it ramps up slowly on the lowest settings. I still prefer to use it at 800, with the fines and also RDT (because it seems to affect how the beans grind, there's no practical need)
I was under the impression that it is hard to align ghost burrs? The marker technique doesn't work that well? I could calibrate to burr touch but I don't need anymore adjustment toward finer. I'm already out to 11-12 for V60. I did try same technique, same coffee, and same grind setting today only changing the RPM. Nothing conclusive but the higher RPM did take longer to draw down. I enjoyed the cup on the low RPM more. I plan to set up a blind cupping soon to see what I enjoy more.
jdrobison wrote:Funny!

Same. No RDT and the fines that it catches are pretty significant. I'm drinking a Burundi right now and am all the way up at 12 and still getting plenty of sweetness. I do a 2 min pre-wet at 160F and then 2 pours through a Melodrip, each of which draws down in 1 min.
I'm really enjoying the no RDT of this grinder and minimal mess. I thought the clicker would be a bit of a gimmick but it actually works really well in practice.
JayBeck wrote:Good to know on grind sizes! What is your pouring technique? I'm using v60 too, doing the Hoffman 3 pour technique (50 / 100 / 100). My draw downs are around 2:45 but it's still not where I'd like it. I've got some of Rao's Colombian right now with cherry and citrus notes.
I do a Tetsu style technique. I've always enjoyed it more than the bigger pours. It goes like this for me: 20g coffee, 300ml total water, 97C for light, 93C for medium-light. 60g bloom straight from gooseneck for 30-45s depending on the roast, then transition to melodrip for the rest 60g, 60g, 60g, 60g with each pour initiating when water level is around 1cm from the bed. Total brew time target is usually 3:30. I've been going over to 4min lately due to too much initial agitation which creates a muddier cup. Best cups (sweetest and most clarity) have been around the 3:30min mark.

Jonk
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#860: Post by Jonk »

Milligan wrote:I was under the impression that it is hard to align ghost burrs?
Yes I think it is. Best I could do was chirp to lock, as discussed here: A proposed alternative to the marker test for burr alignment

By trying the different combinations for mounting the burrs to the carriers I got a theoretical improvement of 20µm. Another combination made it 25µm worse. I don't believe it's worth the trouble and there's a real risk of damage to the grinder with all the tiny screws or perhaps vacuuming the spring by mistake :!:

I didn't notice any improvement to the flavor, only for some reason there's now always a shard stuck somewhere that makes an annoying screeching sound until I adjust the grind finer to grind it down. Still, I think it's safe to assume the settings are not identical from one grinder to another.

For fun I have also tried brewing espresso with the turbo burrs. It kind of works for updosed turboshots with a setting just off chirp, but something tells me the motor doesn't like it. The flavor was actually pretty good with a light roast, though the extraction was on the low side. A Northern Italian style roast tasted awful though :mrgreen: