New Timemore Sculptor Grinders 064 064s 078 078s - Page 79

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
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Jeff
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#781: Post by Jeff »

That seasoning impacts grind distribution is well supported by measurements far beyond what a slick YouTuber puts out. See, for example, https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/05/27/se ... quality-2/

Whether you find this impacts your cup will depend on your coffee, gear, repeatability, tastes.

tagheuer
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#782: Post by tagheuer »

i mean, I guess.

but this seems awfully silly. what is the point of all this nonsense, going this far down the rabbit hole to make a cup of coffee?

Even this guy says "My best hypothesis for what happens here is this: I think that the coffee beans de-gassed and dried as they aged, and the cellulose structure of the beans may also have weakened form the aging."

the lengths some people go to in order to obtain a 5% or less improvement are mind boggling.

i'll bet everything I own the guy that wrote this "study" couldn't tell the difference in a blind taste test.

In any event, the only reason this comes up with the 078s is because the shots channel so bad they are undrinkable out of the box, with video evidence to prove it.

after all the "seasoning" you might as well spread some magical pixie dust on the burrs too, and then they'll transform from horrible to great!

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baldheadracing
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#783: Post by baldheadracing »

tagheuer wrote:But no other home use grinder I'm aware of requires 7 to 10kg of seasoning

This reviewer says its unusable out of the box.
First of all, I must note that I have no idea what is actually causing the issue on the particular grinder(s) reported. I do no have a Timemore Sculpter and did not buy/back one.

However, the situation - unusable out of the box, getting much better after a lot of coffee was run through - was the norm not that many years ago. That much break-in is much less common now due to mainly two reasons:
1. the rise in the use of coatings such as Titanium Nitride meant that the burrset must be mechanically deburred before coating. This rise in popularity of coatings also meant that grinder manufacturers could more easily ask burrset manufacturers/processers to mechanically deburr the burrsets; and
2. more "home use" burrsets are made of stainless steel instead of tool steel. Stainless steel is typically softer than tool steel so those burrs that remain on the burrset are easier to remove (require less break-in). Upper-end "home" grinders often use burrsets intended for commercial use, and some commercial burrsets were notorious for needing 100-150 pounds of coffee run through them before those burrsets "settled down." That much coffee may only be a few hours or a couple days in commercial use, but months in home use.

As an aside, some coatings also need seasoning. This seasoning is not to remove burrs, but to smooth/fill the surface of the coating. However, the grinder is usable out of the box; but the grind does get noticeably better('tastier') after a few kg - but in some coatings, many kg.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

DaveC
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#784: Post by DaveC »

baldheadracing wrote:2. more "home use" burrsets are made of stainless steel instead of tool steel. Stainless steel is typically softer than tool steel so those burrs that remain on the burrset are easier to remove (require less break-in). Upper-end "home" grinders often use burrsets intended for commercial use, and some commercial burrsets were notorious for needing 100-150 pounds of coffee run through them before those burrsets "settled down." That much coffee may only be a few hours or a couple days in commercial use, but months in home use.

As an aside, some coatings also need seasoning. This seasoning is not to remove burrs, but to smooth/fill the surface of the coating. However, the grinder is usable out of the box; but the grind does get noticeably better('tastier') after a few kg - but in some coatings, many kg.
The cheaper burrs are stainless because it's easier to machine, but they really do have to be hardened, normally with an amorphous carbon coating ("Diamond Like Carbon"), or TiN coated (Titanium) with a gold colour. Many of these Chinese burrs that are coated can be likened to an M&M, hard on the outside soft on the inside. Mazzer Burrs are tool steel and SSP coated burrs are tool steel with a coating TiN, TiAN etc..

The break in period of burrs really only gives significant differences for the first 2 or 3Kg, coated burrs still require a few kg through them as they have a certain amount of surface roughness. The amount being put through the 78S sounds very odd to me?

No one really knows how the Chinese made burrs are going to perform especially in the medium to long term. Historically the Chinese don't have a good track record in burr manufacture, but perhaps that is changing or has changed. It's worth keeping in mind how they can "spoil the ship for a ha'peth of tar". If all a burr has to rely on is the coating, that coating really has to be done properly... You have to ask yourself "Do I feel lucky?". "Well, do ya", because there are not any other 78mm burrs in production.

The only thing for sure at the moment is what seems to be the relative inconsistency in production, but perhaps that was just prototyping issues?

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EvanOz85
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#785: Post by EvanOz85 »

tagheuer wrote:i mean, I guess.

but this seems awfully silly. what is the point of all this nonsense, going this far down the rabbit hole to make a cup of coffee?

Even this guy says "My best hypothesis for what happens here is this: I think that the coffee beans de-gassed and dried as they aged, and the cellulose structure of the beans may also have weakened form the aging."

the lengths some people go to in order to obtain a 5% or less improvement are mind boggling.

i'll bet everything I own the guy that wrote this "study" couldn't tell the difference in a blind taste test.

In any event, the only reason this comes up with the 078s is because the shots channel so bad they are undrinkable out of the box, with video evidence to prove it.

after all the "seasoning" you might as well spread some magical pixie dust on the burrs too, and then they'll transform from horrible to great!
I think you're on the wrong forum. Just because you can't taste small differences in blind tastings doesn't mean that others cant. The pixie dust comment is the only "nonsensical" thing I've read from this thread, what's the point of that? Your post reads more as frustration with your own taste buds than with studies that people who are *actually knowledgeable* have produced. I feel like maybe a blade grinder some 8 O'Clock beans would suit your needs well.

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baldheadracing
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#786: Post by baldheadracing »

I have seen uncoated stainless steel burrsets - mostly in hand grinders - and of course not all stainless steel is the same.

The burrset shown in the Aramse video do not appear to be coated. It is hard to tell from a video frame blow-up, but it does look like there might be burrs on the leading edges - at about 13:04:
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

DaveC
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#787: Post by DaveC »

baldheadracing wrote:and of course not all stainless steel is the same.
This is true. The Ukraine war gave a shortage of stainless, although there is plenty of Chinese stainless. Unfortunately the quality of the Chinese stainless is so poor, many manufacturers of espresso machines can't/won't use it.

BKH
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#788: Post by BKH »

Interesting discussion on the burrs. My takeaway is that they are some kind of roughly finished steel burrs without coating. They will benefit from a few kg of deburring and be best after several kg of coffee.

It will be interesting to see if there are any changes to the production units as they are produced. We will see if Timemore deems it worthwhile to refine the finished burrs.

Allongedaze
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#789: Post by Allongedaze »

EvanOz85 wrote:I think you're on the wrong forum. Just because you can't taste small differences in blind tastings doesn't mean that others cant. The pixie dust comment is the only "nonsensical" thing I've read from this thread, what's the point of that? Your post reads more as frustration with your own taste buds than with studies that people who are *actually knowledgeable* have produced. I feel like maybe a blade grinder some 8 O'Clock beans would suit your needs well.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion and although they were liberal with hyperbole there's no reason to get defensive about it and retaliate with insults. It wasn't an attack on anyone and has actually resulted in an interesting conversation on different burr manufacturing and how that affects the amount of seasoning required.

I think the point is, and others have made this well, is that taking 7kg of coffee before the shots became remotely drinkable is odd. It's not a question of whether seasoning is going to result in a gradually greater performance eventually, we know this is true - it's that it took 7kg for them to perform acceptably at all, and it's not a one-off as other reviewers have attested to as well.

This raises questions about the burrs, if they were made with any coating and most importantly, what from. I don't suppose any members of the Timemore FB group have asked the question? A lot of good quality burr manufacturers seem transparent about the process because it's in their interest after all.

ILikeTurtles
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#790: Post by ILikeTurtles »

What else rivals this grinder at the kickstarter entry level pricing?

I thought the kickstarter price was a great deal, no?