For people asking for retention in my case (078 for brew) I do not do RDT and I do not use any devices after grinding to blow out things and I get ±0.1g difference.

Yes there will be a big chunk of fines and chaff in the chute, I prefer to knock that in a different cup and throw it in the sink. Or what I do is put my grinds into the brewer and then put the cup back knock it and throw it into the sink as it's closer than the garbage. That is ±0.3g of chaff and fines.

As for taste, I said it, clean, lingering, crisp acidity, you can get a type of acidity that it not possible in brews like ODE, maybe in ssp brew burrs but those have a different presentation. The 078 has less biterness overall than ssp mp/brew/98mm hu, faster flowing (it flows fast, it's almost impossible to make it clog) You have to grind really fine for something like april brewer + kalita papers, much finer than Patrick.

The presentation of the brews are elegant, with a expensive texture, sweetness is good (not the sweetest brews but it has sweetness) and a pleasant lingering aftertaste that is fruity and acidic (like eating an apple then you get that aftertaste).

The brews are not heavy, or super sticky sweet, they are not super sharp like ssp mp can be, they are juicy and pretty much clean. For people who like thick brews they will hate the 078, I think for them the 078S might be better.
If I want a super thick brew I can take my kinu for a spin, kinu is different when it comes to taste.

Have you had coffee from a Ditting 804 machined burrs or Sweet burrs? I have both burrs and would like to know how the 078 differs between them if you or anyone knows.

I just described you the taste profile of the grinder. To compare it with another grinder I would have to use both grinders at the same time for the same coffee brewed in the same style with the same bean+water and taste side by side blind. And I would have to do this for more than 1-2 weeks, more like 1 -2 months then I can tell you how is the difference.

I had coffee from ditting lab sweet a few times but I can't say anything about it. As I said for people who like syrup, sweet brews this wont do it. It's more towards juicy, fruit juice, acidic brews but balanced.

This is very helpful. Thank you for your description.

boren wrote:@marcoffee - do you plan to also try the 078s burrs? According to ourcoffeeshelter on Instagram, the 078s burrs produced better pourover coffee than the 078 burrs.

Also, do you think that 800 RPM as a low limit is sufficient? Many grinders with variable RPM can go a lot lower.

Hey Boren! I checked their posts, I can't seem to find the comment or post where they directly compare the 078 and 078s burrs for pourover brews! Do you mind linking me or sending me a screenshot?

I am actually keen on picking an 078s for backup cafe use, for decaf, special single origins where we'd be single dosing anyway. There seems to be no updates for better espresso workflow like a portafilter fork or a dosing cup better fit to a portafilter so I'm still unsure.

Would love to see any comparison between the two for pourovers.

As for RPM, I think for the price, I wouldn't let customers risk damaging the motor by having choosable RPMs that are too low. Any stalling even minute can slowly damage and stress the motor, increasing the likelihood that it will clog again, a downward spiral for motor health. Especially for lower RPMs, it's really important that the machine can maintain torque throughout the range. I think 800 RPM was a safe pick. Taste wise, I'm not feeling the need to live at 800 RPM for all coffees so not a problem for me as of now!

DenisSabou wrote:Sounds like you are having some troubles finding outstanding beans to brew, and that is not a problem of the grinder so to speak. ...

Roasters I've tried so far on this:

Lieble, Edition, Ona from Australia, Momos from South Korea, Right Side from Spain, an Indonesian roaster (I can't remember the name), Prodigal (Rao's new roastery, a bunch of Japanese roasters, a few local ones (Philippines), and Paga from Thailand!! Most of these guys roast pretty light but light roast isn't a guarantee for quality roast. Personally haven't been happy with a bunch of Coffee Collective roasts for 2022, has that roasty note I mentioned, even with a the Zp6/SSP! I've found Kaffa's La Esmeralda kinda on the baked side sometimes. Would love to try TW again with this though.

Basically my point even with my favourite roasters and the best greens, roast quality isn't always perfect and this grinder won't hide it at least at 1100RPM and above with the laminar flow recipe, off boil Aquacode, kettle, etc. that I'm using!

Oh and for my brew doses 12.5-16.5g at 1:16, I've been grinding around 4-5 on the dial!

Personally not a huge fan osmotic flow as well.

I hope to try Lance's recipe soon!!! Thank you for that reminding me. I should order a WDT tool for pourovers.

Jonk wrote:It's relevant though. Some grinders/burrs are more forgiving and can even produce something quite tasty out of less than great beans. The ghost burrs in my Fuji Royal is one example, the trade-off in that case being that they're not great with outstanding, light beans.

The 64mm SSP Brew Marc refers to are already quite picky burrs in my experience, though bitterness is definitely reduced even with dark roasts for pour over.

I hope the retention will be less than 0.5g for espresso, otherwise it's no better than an Ode. Workable, but not great.

Yup this is spot on. The "pickiness" of the Apex and the SSP brew burrs are that they never produce a "bad" or "astringent" brew but sometimes brews can become one dimensional or too thin.

malling wrote:Burrs that are more unimodal are just less forgiving to roast, processing and beans defect as well as overall quality. So getting away with less then optimal coffee is just not what should be expected from these type of burrs.

The SSP 64mm MP/UM are flawed, somehow they seem to hide certain roast defects, I noticed this when compared to the Cast that showed the roasting defect! Those not very good as cupping burrs where you want the burrs to showcase everything not masking it.

Yup agree with these too. The Apex and SSP 64mm UM/brew burrs again are forgiving in that they won't highlight defects, just if the coffee lacks complexity.

In this vein, the Timemore 078 is definitely a better cupping grinder in that it is less forgiving with defects but still not moving towards the dull/astringency brews of grinding slightly too fine on a not as good conical burr grinder.

In summary, 078 very good, RPM lets you play with how forgiving it is. I think the Apex is more unimodal, more forgiving with defects, but unforgiving for coffee that isn't complex. The SSP is closer to Apex in this regard than to the 078.

Coffee colective is like that but they advise you to use soft water ±10ppm for brewing. With harder water it's gonna be roasty.

Lance brewing technique with 98-100C and finer grind gives you more deep acidity but the body and overall experience is more like a tea that is concentrated and layered. Brewing with massive flow and 93-96C/5 pours coarse at 13-14 on dial gives you more sweetness and a thicker body, it's a different experience.

I feel like you are missing out a bit by brewing everything so fine, 4-5 on dial is really really fine, and i'm not expressing just myself but also 3 other friends who own the grinder. For me the moment I step bellow 5.2-5.5 I get biterness/muddy brews/bad taste but that is with 5-6g/s flow not with osmotic flow that is much less. In theory you could grind finer and use a reduce flow thing to not get the bad taste but I still believe that you are narrowing a lot the landing spot for most beans. My point is that if you can modulate the grind size to be coarser but extract the good stuff out of it at a decent extraction rate then the coffee will be good, but if you hold on to a super fine grind you are going to enjoy a limited amount of beans. I can count the fingers from one hand how many good beans I had that you could grind them super fine and use 100C water on them and they are good.

I brew doses from 10 to 20g and I use mostly v60, and sometimes timemore b75 on clogging coffees (ethiopia) and april brewer with 12-16g dose for natural or funky coffees. Today brews is a 28 days rested el salvador geisha anaerobic 300h fermented by Andres Saldarriaga, roasted by me. Ground finer and super hot it gives you a massive vegetal acidity, when hot soy sauce when cold cucumber/kimchi vibe. That would be like 15g to 240g brew at 5.5 on dial with 98c water.

Now my recipe for it and it's outstanding: 16g in april ground at 13 on sculptor with 1000rpm.
250g of water split in 3 equal pours, water temp 92C. pour at 0-35 and 60 sec. Finish at 2:05 min. Done, taste is layered, floral (hibiscus, rose) prune skin acidity, crisp tropical fruits, strawberry and when cold has a fruity cognac taste/coating.

Coffee is multi-dimensional, and you must have the skills and tools to modulate the taste to your desire to an optimal result. If we restraint ourselves into a narrow recipe the results wont be always good, and there will be a lot of frustration. I have been there, when I owned a lot of ssp burrs and custom made water, even using 5-10ppm water.

DenisSabou wrote:. I can count the fingers from one hand how many good beans I had that you could grind them super fine and use 100C water on them and they are good.

I learned that with my first April coffee. 100C and fine grind made a harsh coffee that I could not finish. Communicating with April and following their advice, I went to around 90C and coarser grind, and it made a very smooth, tasty, easy to drink coffee with multiple flavors. Since then I grind coarser overall and experiment with temperatures and pouring rates.