Lagom P64 Flat (Option-O) - Page 9

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
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redbone

#81: Post by redbone » Oct 08, 2019, 3:49 pm

Would not call them comparable simply because the both have flat burrs further the Monolith Flat has 75mm burrs and like all Kafatek made in the U.S. of A. Ceado E37S made in Italy by a long established grinder company sports 83mm burrs, low retention and great feedback could be had for similar or less price considering shipping included. Also Eureka Atom 75 and Compak E6 (Spain) come to mind. There is also the advantage of parts distribution and repairs with companies with a wide global distribution network. Each person will make their conclusion regarding perceived value. My experience and dealings with manufacturing established my assessment yours may be different.
Between order and chaos there is espresso.
Semper discens.


Rob
LMWDP #549

max

#82: Post by max » Oct 08, 2019, 4:16 pm

This discussion is getting a bit ridiculous. The company has Chinese roots, so they presumably know suppliers, machine shops, etc. Why would they move production and risk reducing quality/consistency?

It's a bit tiring to see yet another one of these discussions. There was one already when the 101 was released. IIRC the conclusion was that it was clearly a ripoff of the LIDOs (clearly.. you hold with one hand and turn with the other) and that the production quality couldn't be good as it is from China. Now we have the Lagom that is just a Monolith copy and production is mainly driven by price. :roll:

There are many things to be said about China, but Helor seems to be bringing high quality products to the market. Do we need to question that at every turn?
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discsinthesky

#83: Post by discsinthesky » Oct 08, 2019, 7:27 pm

redbone wrote:Would not call them comparable simply because the both have flat burrs further the Monolith Flat has 75mm burrs and like all Kafatek made in the U.S. of A. Ceado E37S made in Italy by a long established grinder company sports 83mm burrs, low retention and great feedback could be had for similar or less price considering shipping included. Also Eureka Atom 75 and Compak E6 (Spain) come to mind. There is also the advantage of parts distribution and repairs with companies with a wide global distribution network. Each person will make their conclusion regarding perceived value. My experience and dealings with manufacturing established my assessment yours may be different.
I guess I should have expounded, the similarities between the two extend beyond just the flat burrs platform - single-dosing work flow and variable grind speed control being the biggies. None of the other grinders you mention are comparable in these areas, and both are features that are prominent parts of the Monolith (Ceado E37Z, EG-1, and now Lagom) design and approach.

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instantkamera

#84: Post by instantkamera » Oct 09, 2019, 10:41 am

max wrote:This discussion is getting a bit ridiculous. The company has Chinese roots, so they presumably know suppliers, machine shops, etc. Why would they move production and risk reducing quality/consistency?

It's a bit tiring to see yet another one of these discussions. There was one already when the 101 was released. IIRC the conclusion was that it was clearly a ripoff of the LIDOs (clearly.. you hold with one hand and turn with the other) and that the production quality couldn't be good as it is from China. Now we have the Lagom that is just a Monolith copy and production is mainly driven by price. :roll:

There are many things to be said about China, but Helor seems to be bringing high quality products to the market. Do we need to question that at every turn?
Exactly. Robert's comments about Chinese manufacturing are foolishly dismissive. The stereotype of "China == Cheap" is just that. There are artisans and craftspeople in EVERY country and you get what you pay for. Just because China has a lower acceptable quality level doesn't mean that their high water mark is equally low. To be clear, China makes a lot of cheap sh** largely because WE (North Americans) pay them (barely) to - not because they can't make items of quality.

Plain and simple, there is no direct competitor to the Lagom. If you know squat about grinders, you know this package doesn't exist at this price. If you *don't* know that, then I'm not sure your opinion is really worth considering here. There are cheaper single dosing grinders that are conical (hand or electric in the case of the niche). There are more expensive single dose grinders that are (generally larger) flats. There are flats from the "big guys" in/around this price range that neither focus directly on single dosing or burr selection and alignment.

Now obviously we have to have some faith, since no one has actually USED this grinder, but it really seems to me that some folks are disingenuous with their skepticism. If this WERE a product from a LW, Kafatek etc it would be accepted as the next coming.
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redbone

#85: Post by redbone » Oct 09, 2019, 11:56 am

My statements were not intended to be disparaging. The comments are based on work experience since our facility does cable assemblies, resells cable and related hardware some manufactured in China, Canada and USA. Long time friend that is in the automotive die industry also has dealing with China and shares similar experiences. All his dies require further tweaking to meet spec.

At no point does a G8 or similar industrialized country start or move production to China based on quality. Price is the driving force for producing in China and it has come at a cost quality being one of them. It's disingenuous for a company in Australia and similar to claim otherwise. China is aware of this Volvo cars owned by Geely of China yet Volvos destined for markets outside of China are made in Sweden at higher costs and quality. They are aware that G8+ consumers would not pay a premium price for a brand made in China.

Currently there are a decent amount of single dosing flat grinders with very low retention at competitive prices made by companies who have earned a reputation. There is no magic with a grinder simply because it offers variable grinding speeds. It's derogatory to make a statement "next coming" regarding products from other companies who have earned their distinction with past and current products.
Between order and chaos there is espresso.
Semper discens.


Rob
LMWDP #549

discsinthesky

#86: Post by discsinthesky » Oct 09, 2019, 12:49 pm

redbone wrote: Currently there are a decent amount of single dosing flat grinders with very low retention at competitive prices made by companies who have earned a reputation.
Mind pointing some out that I might have missed? I haven't seen one in the sub $2k range that meets the flat burr and single dosing workflow without some involving some work-arounds (E37S).

acg

#87: Post by acg » replying to discsinthesky » Oct 09, 2019, 1:18 pm

I am still waiting for my Monolith Flat SSP, so my experience is limited to the Forte AP I am using. I use it for single dosing. It seems to have very low retention. I just put in 18g beans in the bean hopper and then it usually produces 18g output. I am even thinking if the bean hopper size is reduced to something like 4oz, it could be considered as a single dosing flat burr grinder. Its burrs are 54mm in size.

Anyway, looking forward to the FlatSSP early next year to experience a high end grinder!

ira
Supporter ♡

#88: Post by ira » Oct 09, 2019, 1:35 pm

It's clear looking at the pictures of the P64 that it's possible that an amazing grinder will come out of it. Only time will tell if it will be as good as a Mono Flat. Good things come from China, but in my experience having things manufactured in China, quality is always the issue. Even when I told vendors I don't care if the price goes up, I want perfection they were often unable to meet my needs. I pulled one product back to the US because for an additional amount I was willing to pay, I got the ability to make the vendor meet my needs. And while my price went up 40%, I don't need to do 100% inspection and I don't reject 5%. Not to say that I just found the wrong vendor in China and the right one in Arizona. Other vendors do perfectly with essentially always perfect product.

Conceptually if all the parts in the P64 can be made on a CNC lathe and it's all run on well maintained modern machines with reasonable programming and tooling that's replaced at the proper intervals, making essentially perfect grinders should be trivially easy, but as Dennis of Monolith fame will tell you, it's just not that easy.

If I was guessing, I would guess the P64 will be at least a really good grinder, only time will tell if it belongs among the greats.

But as has been pointed out earlier, Helor has always made really good grinders. Production and customer service have sometimes been issues, but never quality that I'm aware of.

Ira

false1001

#89: Post by false1001 » Oct 09, 2019, 1:40 pm

redbone wrote:My statements were not intended to be disparaging. The comments are based on work experience since our facility does cable assemblies, resells cable and related hardware some manufactured in China, Canada and USA. Long time friend that is in the automotive die industry also has dealing with China and shares similar experiences. All his dies require further tweaking to meet spec.

At no point does a G8 or similar industrialized country start or move production to China based on quality. Price is the driving force for producing in China and it has come at a cost quality being one of them. It's disingenuous for a company in Australia and similar to claim otherwise. China is aware of this Volvo cars owned by Geely of China yet Volvos destined for markets outside of China are made in Sweden at higher costs and quality. They are aware that G8+ consumers would not pay a premium price for a brand made in China.

Currently there are a decent amount of single dosing flat grinders with very low retention at competitive prices made by companies who have earned a reputation. There is no magic with a grinder simply because it offers variable grinding speeds. It's derogatory to make a statement "next coming" regarding products from other companies who have earned their distinction with past and current products.
You're essentially just arguing that the law of large numbers exists. People move to China for quality all the time. China has some of the best manufacturers in the world and most, if not all, of the top fabrication engineers. Some of the work they do there is downright awe inspiring. This just isn't debatable, and I say this as someone who whole heartedly believes in the American manufacturing industry and tries to use local suppliers whenever possible. China having this advantage isn't necessarily a good thing for my interests, but it's the way it is.

Of course, the average American or Swedish manufacturer will have a higher quality product (all else being equal), because they can't compete on price so they have to compete on quality. They pay massively higher wages, have pitiful supply chains compared to Asia, and they have to justify that cost somehow. And of course you can find low quality manufacturing in China, because it's cheap and plentiful. You get what you pay for, and only in china can you get ridiculously cost effective manufacturing. But I guarantee if you spent the time to find the reputable shops with engineers that take pride in their work (trust me, they exist in China) and paid them what you're paying the American shop you'd get high quality work if not higher quality work, and faster.

I'm not trying to pick on them, but since you used them as an example your friend who's constantly tweaking dies sounds like he's not investing time into his relationship with his supplier, or he's merely picking the most cost effective option. Most east asian companies operate on different value systems than western companies. This isn't a good or bad thing, it's just different people operating differently than how we are used to. I know from experience that if you put in time and effort into cultivating a relationship and you show them you mean business (do your own QA, send back parts that don't meet contractual tolerances, rely on their expertise when appropriate, and stand your ground when you know you're right) it will pay huge dividends. But yeah, if you treat them like a CNC Amazon and pick a supplier based off cost you'll be treated like a chump. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I've been that chump both personally and professionally before.

Shops like Kafatek are huge outliers. Comparing everyone to Denis is completely unrealistic, and being honest I'd trust a random Chinese shop over a random American dude with a Haas. The random American dude might deliver a higher quality product on balance, but it'll be outrageously expensive, late, and dramatically over engineered. In my experience you can go through three runs with a Chinese manufacturer before you can even get full quotes back from some western shops. YMMV.
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TomC
Team HB

#90: Post by TomC » Oct 09, 2019, 2:06 pm

I don't care if people disagree. And moderating the forum isn't about whitewashing arguments, but for sake of value to the thread overall, let's try to keep the discussion centered on the grinder itself, rather than going back and forth debating about Chinese vs other manufacturers capabilities or overhead.

Discussing the grinder will be a bit myopic if it's not in use yet, but let's look for the best intentions in each others' comments.

Thanks