Lagom P64 Flat (Option-O) - Page 130

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.

#1291: Post by Imbuere »

Est wrote:What a defect you faced? I'm to buy this grinder and collect all the feedback as the price is on the edge of my financial capability.
My grinder will not grind very fine. I suspect there's a misalignment.

After today's shot, it made a "jingley" noise for a few seconds and the stopped. Completely dead, won't turn in at all.

Communication with Hayden has been increasingly poor and I'm at the point I'd just like my money back.


#1292: Post by Imbuere »

TenLayers wrote:Since you're in the USofA, I'm assuming you're communicating through Prima Coffee and not Hayden in Australia?
Nope, I get sporadic responses from Hayden. I was part of the first or second batch and it was a direct order. I only wish I had gone through a third party.

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#1293: Post by ziggomatic »

Pulled my first espresso shots with the P64 today (Unimodal burrs late 2020 version). Very promising initial results, and coming from a Baratza vario I was instantly impressed being able to do a few things new to me:

-First pull was about 1 number (5 notches) coarser from marked burr contact point, using light roast coffee, and managed to seriously choke my Robot. The pull took nearly 2 minutes of HARD pressure to finish 45 grams out. Surprisingly this was NOT a sink shot, tasted clearly overextracted but in a very soft pleasant chocolaty way, tasting strongly of cacao & bakers chocolate. Not bad. Impressed with how fine this grinder can obviously go.

-Second pull was 4 notches coarser, this time ran too fast so I eased up pressure a bit (probably in the 5 bar range), shot was slightly sour and a bit under extracted flavor wise, but was still far from a sink shot, and again very drinkable.

-Third pull I had to switch coffees to a different (and fresher) light roasted coffee which was roasted 5 days ago. I moved a couple notches finer, yet this time I really choked my Robot as the pull took 2 minutes with strong pressure. Again to my amazement, not a sink shot, and very drinkable.

All shots were 18 grams in, 45g out @ RPM setting #2.

This was all at 4pm so I will wait till the morning to try again. I can already tell I am really going to like this grinder.

More fun to be had tomorrow.

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#1294: Post by Jimjam168 »

Danny- thank you for your initial thoughts! As I wait for mine to arrive, I love reading about the successes of others. With the Unimodal, how have you found mouthfeel?

For anyone following this thread while waiting for the spring delivery, I heard from Prima today. They said Customs has already hung on to the unimodal shipment for 8 weeks, so there is still a very long road for the HU to be my dismay. The ETA has been pushed back due to back ordered parts (which Option-O has since filled for the early spring shipment) and now, more importantly, a major backup at customs. They have no ETA at this time.


#1295: Post by ziggomatic »

Jimjam168 wrote: With the Unimodal, how have you found mouthfeel?
Well I dont have confidence that I am pulling these shots properly just yet (at least not by taste) to answer that with much certainty, but so far all shots seem to have a little thinner mouthfeel & little less body compared with my vario ceramic burrs (which I expected in switching to unimodal espresso). And I think the smoothness makes up for any lack of body. There is no way a 2 minute shot on the Vario would have been drinkable, typically when I was out of range shots were very harsh, bitter, etc.

Today was more parameter surfing for proper grind settings. I pulled some shots again with 15g dose, and some with 18g. Times were all around 40-45 seconds, which as I read more and more about EKspreso, seems too long. They tasted good, not great. Fairly muddy flavors with not a lot of acidity or sweetness. Smooth, but lacking deliciousness.

I've now spent some time reading up about unimodal espresso and while I know taste is always the most important factor, I get the feeling my times should be more in the 25-30 second range for 1:3 ratio pulls. Tomorrow will have a go at coarser grind settings with 18g dose to see if I can pull more sweetness & acidity out of the coffee. Again with my Robot I was pushing the lever pretty hard to get those 40-50 second times, so I think my grind was still too fine. Still using a light roasted Ethiopian washed coffee.

Any P64 Unimodal & Cafelat Robot users that can share their preferred dose and/or pull times would be a helpful point of reference :-)


#1296: Post by Eiern »

Don't have a robot, but I have found with the unimodal burrs a good wetting of the puck followed by a ~2g per second flow is the sweet spot (a little slower at first of course).

The very best shots have very clear aromas, good sweetness and a nice velvety body. If I go too coarse I get too much acidity and not enough body, if I go too fine I get a less clear cup, and it doesn't taste optimal, get a dirty bitter taint. I agree most shots are drinkable if not pulled at very vrong settings. I use an 18g dose in either 18 or 20g VST basket, and have found the flow to be the same in both baskets with gentle preinfusion and lower pressure.

I am trying to change my P64 order to a P100 and hope I will be able to get same-ish shots as these only a touch more refined or blended. The unimodals are very clear but could sometimes benefit from being a little more blended, as some shots are as well extracted and balanced as I can get them, but the taste balance can be off, all depending of the beans characteristic taste. Some beans don't taste super as espresso with them, while some great beans that are a good fit are really great.

I have pulled some recent EKspresso shots with my stock EK burrs, and while they aren't as clean and bold, they are sweet and tasy and a little more mellow/smooth/blended. The EK43 is not the best grinder for repeatability for espresso, the shots I really nail are fantastic and then the next one is meh, so I'm going to try some different burrs including the EK's in the P100. I already have the High Uniformity 98mm burrs so know those well.


#1297: Post by ziggomatic »

Thanks Eirik! Very helpful info.

Today's pulls were much slower, ranging from 19-30 seconds, 3:1 @ 54g out. Surprisingly I had a bit of channeling on half the pulls, even with WDT and fairly delicate puck prep. Even though I was nowhere near how much force I typically put out, it almost seemed like I was pulling the levers too hard with the channeling happening later in the shot. I switched coffees at one point and even though it was a 19 second gusher, it still had really good flavor clarity, and was enjoyable.

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#1298: Post by ziggomatic »

Week 1 new owner update: After lots of experimenting on the P64 Unimodal & Cafelat Robot setup, I still haven't really been able to pull great espresso. Have worked on 3 different coffees, all light roast, and still cant get that sweetness & clarity I was hoping to find. The grinder still has a lot of static, so I WDT & RDT prep used each time. Previous owner of this grinder only used it for pourover and said he estimated about 6lbs of coffee run through since purchased new.

Here are some key experimentation points I have touched on (all dose/grind/pressure adjustments were made separately one at a time):

-Stayed within faster extraction times (under 30sec), typically pre-infusing for around 6-8 second then slowly ramping up pressure. Tried varying pressure after preinfusion from soft/medium to medium/hard (dont have a pressure gauge but I would imagine from between 3-7 bar or so).
-Mostly pulled 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratios. Within these ratios, I tried different doses from 15g all the way up to 21g. Higher doses typically just resulted in more muddiness, even on faster pulls.
-Using BWT magnesium filtered water, 115-ish TDS (getting delicious pourover results with this water).

Overall my results tented to be pretty muddled & muted flavors, some sweetness was there and ok at times but nothing great. In comparison to some of the best espresso i've tasted with the same coffees, I dont feel like I am anywhere near the flavor clarity & sweetness possible.

Maybe unimodal espresso is just not my style, but I am still fairly confident I just haven't found the sweet spot yet, so I will continue to play around with recipes (I love the process just not making much progress overall yet).

I've also ordered the SSP High Uniformity burr set which arrived next week, I will run some old coffee through for a quick break-in and then spend some time working with these burrs, as a more traditional style espresso recipe is what I have been used to working within the past several years.