DoubleR wrote:While this would not be my preferred grinder due to multiple reasons, I've noticed in other forums/platforms a certain disdain for this grinder simply because it has conical burrs.

I've observed a perception among some that large flat burrs or favoring modern light roasts somehow equate to a more sophisticated coffee enthusiast. There are conical burr grinders that arguably offer better shits and versatility than many flat burr grinders. The notion that conical grinders are solely for the less discerning coffee drinker is puzzling to me.

There no such thing as conical nor flat profile, the profile that we see is a consequence of the design of the individual burrs where conical typically been designed with a broader particle distribution and more focus on body/texture and being easy to work with in commercial environments, rather then bringing the separating and notes forward. There few conical that are truly addressing this like ZP, C40, shurikone etc. so there definitely conical for the type of coffee enthusiasts your addressing.

That said modern flat burr do favour modern lighter roast to a much larger degree then majority of conical dos, there definitely a certain coherence between the preferences for said roast and preferences towards the burrs focusing on clarity and separation or at least juiciness, these are at large big flat burrs more then these are any other size or type. So the link between sophisticates concerning coffee connoisseur and the view such should go big flat is text book examples of the human tendency to categorise things in simplified manners.

This is however is also a textbook example of manufactures targeting a very specific segment, this isn't really targeting the sophisticates coffee connoisseur who go through a variety of different limited lots every week. This are targeting a more upmarket casual coffee consumer that are after a more traditional profile, that value ease of use and aesthetics closer to that of the micra offer and who more likely just drink the same blend on end, the user that want just good coffee reliably and not have to overthink it, both Micra and this is fundamentally targeting that.

malling wrote:Almost €1200 for 39mm well priced? You can usually find 63mm for below that price, even the Niche Zero is substantial cheaper then that.

It's not really well priced at all! It's overpriced and massively so... but being LM that was kinda expected.

The only case where smaller burrs beat or equal bigger burrs is generally because we are comparing high end expensive burrs with run of the mill cheap as it comes Italmil or Mazzer burrs. But there limitation on what can be achieved on small surface. I'm sure it will be fine enough but for €1200 that seem rather expensive for just that.

Grind speed however is irrelevant

As things become more clear, the Pico is not an Etzinger designed grinder. I don't know what the measurement of 39mm tells us exactly, as Etzinger (which produced the previous grinders for LM) measures the inner cone and all other manufacturers provide measures on the outer ring. This grossly makes for the same size burrs in an Etzmax and Niche Zero, but since that LM clearly states it is not an Etzmax, I'm not so sure.

Value comes in more than just burrs size. Without a doubt the Niche Zero takes my #1 spot for ugliest grinder on the market. With its plastic cap and Senseo housing it doesn't meet my requirements, but overall it has proven to be a solid grinder at a very reasonable price (with the double VAT-debacle costing around €800). A more solid housing, PF holder, design, fluffy grounds, adjustment mechanism and many more factors grinder can differ on, can be well worth an additional couple hundred in my opinion.

Anyways, not trying to flame the Niche Zero in particular, but €1.100 could still be a reasonable price if it meets the perceived La Marzocco quality. If it would be an Etzmax -which easily meets/exceeds the Niche's performance with its 32mm burrs- in a LM jacket, it would be priced more than fair. However, I assume there has been some cost-cutting involved, possibly smaller burrs and plastic housing. If it then also performs less than a Niche Zero it becomes a hard bargain.

I'll wait with my final judgement until I've seen and tasted one.

Ypuh wrote:As things become more clear, the Pico is not an Etzinger designed grinder. I don't know what the measurement of 39mm tells us exactly, as Etzinger (which produced the previous grinders for LM) measures the inner cone and all other manufacturers provide measures on the outer ring. This grossly makes for the same size burrs in an Etzmax and Niche Zero, but since that LM clearly states it is not an Etzmax, I'm not so sure.

Again there no indication it's the inner burr, again they also cooperated with Mazzer in the past and they measure the outher. Hopefully it's the inner not outer or it would be the most expensive small electric conical on the market.

Value comes in more than just burrs size. Without a doubt the Niche Zero takes my #1 spot for ugliest grinder on the market. With its plastic cap and Senseo housing it doesn't meet my requirements, but overall it has proven to be a solid grinder at a very reasonable price (with the double VAT-debacle costing around €800).

Aesthetic is a weird thing I personally find this too be much worse then Niche, and I'm no fan of the Aesthetic of Niche and least of all their lids. It just has so much kitchenaid vibe to it

A more solid housing, PF holder, design, fluffy grounds, adjustment mechanism and many more factors grinder can differ on, can be well worth an additional couple hundred in my opinion.

But dos it really have that? Also Niche is actually pretty neat in terms of grind adjustments. I can mention several more expensive grinders I find much much worse in that aspect. Personally doing SD a pf holder is more or less irrelevant and often in the way if you use it for more then just espresso.

Anyways, not trying to flame the Niche Zero in particular, but €1.100 could still be a reasonable price if it meets the perceived La Marzocco quality. If it would be an Etzmax -which easily meets/exceeds the Niche's performance with its 32mm burrs- in a LM jacket, it would be priced more than fair. However, I assume there has been some cost-cutting involved, possibly smaller burrs and plastic housing. If it then also performs less than a Niche Zero it becomes a hard bargain.

I'll wait with my final judgement until I've seen and tasted one.

Again there just no guarantee this is neither in build nor in cup better or worse then a Niche. Niche zero performance is like a mazzer because well that's kinda the burrs it uses, so it will always be limited by that. However you can still get the Duo for less and for €1200 it's like a Duo with SSP burrs that's my hole gripe with the pricing it just seems excessive. Also the fact they so easy cut that much off a micra plus this in a limited number dos tell there is a rather noticeable margin on both products, make out of that what you will.

StoicDude wrote: I personally go with the taste in cup more so than how big the burrs are, but that is very subjective from person to person from my experience.

It's not possible for most of us to "go with the taste in the cup" when comparing coffee-making equipment. How, for example, could I A-B the taste of the Pico with a larger conical grinder? And I live in a capital city not far from La Marzocco's Home showroom.

Milligan wrote:I doubt this is for the coffee nerd or enthusiast, we have an embarrassingly large selection of great grinders to choose from.

Exactly this, Marzocco won't be trying to compete with something like this. They're just doing what Rocket and other espresso manufacturers do which is to just rebadge and lightly modify an existing grinder to sell with their line up.

The fact that this is already being favourably compared to the likes of capable single dosers with proven track records like the Niche Zero is laughable. Shows what a brand name can do!

What existing grinder did La Marzocco rebadge/modify?

If it's not a tweaked Sette/Etzmax then it's certainly borrowing the main aspects of their design with a slightly different shell

Just how the Marzocco Lux D is a Mini/Super Jolly rebadged with smaller burrs, made by Mazzer.

DoubleR wrote:While this would not be my preferred grinder due to multiple reasons, I've noticed in other forums/platforms a certain disdain for this grinder simply because it has conical burrs.

I've observed a perception among some that large flat burrs or favoring modern light roasts somehow equate to a more sophisticated coffee enthusiast. There are conical burr grinders that arguably offer better shots and versatility than many flat burr grinders. The notion that conical grinders are solely for the less discerning coffee drinker is puzzling to me.

No doubt you are spot on as some definitely look down on others just because they don't seek the same equipment, coffees, etc. Personally I find the modern spin with the flat burr fad and toasted coffees to be quite boring. Thin, weak, unbalanced sums the espresso up regardless of what spin is put on it. For me texture is just as important as taste with espresso and the majority of crap equipment being touted these days is over hyped/priced to try making underdeveloped coffees more palatable. To each their own, but other than an old school 64 mm flat beast I'll gladly take a quality hand/conical setup over anything made at this time. I also find it hilarious how some bash old school companies like Mazzer when what they have done for decades simply gets the job done and does it quite well. No need to try fixing what clearly isn't broken.

mathof wrote:It's not possible for most of us to "go with the taste in the cup" when comparing coffee-making equipment. How, for example, could I A-B the taste of the Pico with a larger conical grinder? And I live in a capital city not far from La Marzocco's Home showroom.

That's the hard part in my opinion and what sucks. Most people on here and coffee stuff in general are getting their information or advice based on opinion from the internet.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you base your coffee making equipment buying decisions on?

It also seems that fear of missing out is really strong when it comes to grinders. People want or think they need the newest and latest thing because the internet said its better.

Doesn't the LaMarzocco showroom have a large conical that you could test? I would think you could test some of the equipment there, u less it's just a true display, no function, showroom.

This is not to defend or advocate for the Pico, but if you were able to do a side by side with a large conical you might be surprised that the differences in the cup are not that great.

How to test that, is a problem.

Just to put my 2 cents about coffee in general from an interesting experiment at work the other day which was super interesting to me.
I had 3 people at work blind taste coffee.

One coffee was a 2 week off roast local medium single origin.

The other, Folgers, pre ground, 6 plus months old.

2 liked the Folgers better, which was crazy to me. These were people that drink coffee every day, but have minimal or zero exposure to coffee enthusiast stuff.

I tasted both of course, not blind, and the difference was extremely noticeable.