Knock Hausgrind vs. Orphan Espresso (BETA) LIDO 2 - Double Blind Test - Page 3

#21: Post by **another_jim** » February 9th, 2014, 7:58 pm

Thanks to Tom, Henry, and all the beta testers for putting in the effort to do these tests. It's hard to imagine the combination of fastidious attention they require, and the sheer tedium that needs to be overcome, until you actually do them.

It's really interesting to see the pluses and minuses of using proven motorized grinder burrs like the Tresapde and 68mm conicals compared to the smaller burr sets designed for hand grinding. It seems the better cup quality of the high end burrs does come through, but that finding the right ergonomics for their higher torque requirements remains a work in progress.

I'm glad OE, Knock and the other companies for creating these high end hand grinders. It's clear that there is still room to refine the designs; but these grinders are brand new, so it's unfair to expect them to have the refinement of designs that are over 50 years old. Just think how much of an edge either of these would have over a conventional Zassenhaus or Peugeot grinders, which are the old peak of hand grinderdom.

#22: Post by **chang00** » February 9th, 2014, 10:18 pm

I know from the postings, it seems Lido2 has not been convenient for espresso grinding. My method today is to use it like a Zass knee grinder, but with one knee slightly above the other, to tilt the grinder into a 35 to 45-degree angle, instead of using the supplied rubber base.

I might sound contradictory, but it is certainly possible to use this grinder for espresso, and I can do it in one long breath, 16 grams in about 50-60 turns. It just requires more effort compared to brewed coffee grinding. The last week when I first got it, I used home roast that was about one week post roast:

Today I used the one-month old Italian blend with plenty of robusta:

I do wish I have more time with this grinder to run it through the sieves. This can wait until the actual production unit.

#23: Post by **jbviau** » February 9th, 2014, 10:19 pm

Nice job, you two! And I believe Carmen deserves an HB pin at the very least for being so patient and helpful.

However, that video of her struggling mightily with the LIDO 2 is not at all representative of what I've experienced. I'm not disputing the general observation that the hausgrind is easier to crank. It is, but not by *that* much.

Example from tonight: I just did 20 g. of Mountain Air's Taza Dorada #1 on the LIDO 2 in 24 sec. and 67 revolutions. This was without difficulty, and at a setting (1 full turn from zero + 1 mark on the locking ring) that's finer than what you all were using in your cupping tests from what I can tell. Maybe I should do my own video?

The LIDO 2's always been faster (and required more muscle) than the hausgrind in my filter coffee tests, and its times are still coming down after 3 weeks of daily use. Which brings me to my next point...

TomC wrote:I think a part of it is simply being unfamiliar with the grinder. With work, someone could figure out how tight to lock the upper set ring and how tight to set the lower ring, but another fear was that when tightening on the catch cup, everything slid around.

Re: the first sentence quoted above, YES. The rings have literally never slipped on me, and my initial awkwardness with the ring system quickly faded. Removing the catch cup without unlocking the locking ring is effortless once you know the drill.

Anyway, it's interesting that your taste test results line up neatly with mine. And I agree that the LIDO 2's grind consistency appears to the eye to be a touch more uniform.

February 9th, 2014, 10:45 pm

First of all, a big thank you for this exhaustive review (and while we're at it, a big thanks to jbviau for his thread on the Lido2 as well).

All this talk about the effort required with the Lido2 got me thinking. For those of you who have tried both Lido's, would you say the Lido2 requires much more effort? I'm asking because I've never had trouble grinding with the one even in the espresso range.

February 9th, 2014, 11:23 pm

jbviau wrote: Example from tonight: I just did 20 g. of Mountain Air's Taza Dorada #1 on the LIDO 2 in 24 sec. and 67 revolutions. This was without difficulty, and at a setting (1 full turn from zero + 1 mark on the locking ring) that's finer than what you all were using in your cupping tests from what I can tell. Maybe I should do my own video?

That may be part of the difference right there. I can't say for certain where the Lido 2 was set on our test each time. We did take turns grinding with each grinder during the cupping portion, but I dialed in the Hausgrind, and Henry adjusted the Lido 2 until they matched visually. By the second draw down test, we had very similar draining times.

Maybe Henry can comment at where it was set, because I'm under the opinion that it was set finer than that, but I could be wrong.

And the macro photo's are zoomed and cropped. Without a coin or recognizable item in it for comparison, you'd have no idea what the grind actually was. I just wanted to zoom and crop so that people could see how consistent the Lido 2 was.

Definitely make your own video! The more the merrier; it should paint a clearer picture having more user videos. And remember, my girlfriend is 5'3" 120 pounds. She'd represent the lowest strength level on the bell curve of users. But Henry and his lovely wife can easily bear witness, all I did was hand her the pre-dosed grinders right after our cupping session, and told her not to talk, and that if she stopped, to keep trying. There's no acting there. I showed her how to properly hold both, and that's about it.

February 10th, 2014, 12:13 am

Barb Grinds

Why do I still have to open all the pickle jars????

#27: Post by **coffeedom** » February 10th, 2014, 12:21 am

orphanespresso wrote:Barb Grinds

Hmm, the Force is strong with this one.

February 10th, 2014, 1:29 am

orphanespresso wrote:Barb Grinds

No debate there. It looks very easy for her. Like I said, we ground for drip aiming at a typical Clever Dripper grind that is slightly finer than what I do for my Kalita Wave, and slightly coarser than what I do for my auto drip. I must say, there's no arguing the point at all, Barb clearly is having no trouble at all with the 10g of beans she's using. Her effort grinding for espresso is easier than what I experienced grinding for the drip portion of the challenge, no doubt about it.

That only gives me two rational explanations:

The beta unit we're using just needs to be used more and isn't quite as broken in as the test unit that Doug and Barb have at home (could be completely wrong, but it's a guess)

Two, the user experience drastically improves with time and practice.

It's likely a combination of the two

What kind of espresso roast coffee were you guys using? If you'd be willing to weight out a 16-18g dose and run it again, that would at least be the same dose we used.

February 10th, 2014, 1:43 am

Very light roasts require a lot more effort than medium roasts; could that be the difference?

i.e. If you like third wave; buy a set of dumbbells and bulk up

February 10th, 2014, 1:50 am

Eat your Wheaties!