Knock Hausgrind vs. Orphan Espresso (BETA) LIDO 2 - Double Blind Test - Page 2

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
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peacecup

Postby peacecup » Feb 09, 2014, 10:08 am

Thanks for taking the effort to do the blind testing.

The difficulty in turning the handle is likely to be influenced as much by the length of the lever as it is by the burr design itself. Measure the distance from the center of the burr axle to the center of the knob axle (perpendicular to the table top, not along the handle axis).

If you don't believe me try grinding by holding the handle at the top of the burr axle :wink:
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."

pShoe

Postby pShoe » Feb 09, 2014, 12:10 pm

The caliber of reviews accompanying these grinders is impressive. Pretty exciting times for hand grinders.

It seems evident that anyone who purchases either of these grinders will be more than satisfied. That is with a reasonable expectation of what brew methods they are "capable" of, and what brew methods will let them shine. It's also apparent that a number of people are willing to buy both and be extra satisfied! In fact, I might be part of that group. They are both amazing grinders, so why not? I'd be interested in shipping cost for the Hausgrind, but now I'm getting off topic...

IIRC, there was a learning curve with the Hausgrind for espresso, and some adjustment slipping at the finer settings too. Perhaps some of the dialing-in and adjustment slipping issues could be reduced as the grinder becomes more familiar. Tom mentioned having a longer experience with the Hausgrind right off the bat, so I know he already anticipated that possibly having some influence.

I'm interested in a direct comparison between the Hausgrind and a HG One, Pharos, etc. I can't remember reading any direct comparisons. I do not expect it to match or beat that level of grinder for espresso, but LIDO 2 has been compared and tested against similar grinders. Both have been stated of being capable for espresso; while the Hausgrind is more adept for it. An important determination, regardless of if they are "capable," is would either of these grinders be recommended as an espresso grinder?

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TomC
Team HB

Postby TomC » Feb 09, 2014, 12:40 pm

Two quick points:

1) I fixed some grammar mistakes, (wrong apostrophies, Hausgrind instead of Hausgrind-"er", etc)

2) The Hausgrind was perfectly fine at espresso prep once I swapped the spring to the standard version it will ship with. I won't stick my neck on the line and objectively state, but I do believe the Hausgrind was ever so slightly more consistent in particle size with the stiffer spring. I don't know if these would translate into cupping results or not. I didn't notice a change for the worse in cupping once making the switch, but it did make it a hell of a lot easier to use for espresso. It's truly a duel function portable hand grinder.

I have the HG-One. I can do a double blind with the HG-One and the Hausgrind, but it seems kinda silly.

OldNuc

Postby OldNuc » Feb 09, 2014, 12:45 pm

peacecup wrote:... The difficulty in turning the handle is likely to be influenced as much by the length of the lever as it is by the burr design itself. Measure the distance from the center of the burr axle to the center of the knob axle (perpendicular to the table top, not along the handle axis). ...


Thank you gentlemen for an excellent review.

I would also like to know the lever arm length for each grinder as this will have a significant impact on grinding effort required and the amount of flywheel effect.

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beer&mathematics

Postby beer&mathematics » Feb 09, 2014, 12:49 pm

Wow, impressive review! Many thanks to Tom and Henry for carrying out these tests and giving their honest opinions on both and, when possible, objective results. I want to especially thank you for the videos since they tell more of the story that is difficult to explain with words (i.e. video is the internet version of feel for yourself).

pShoe wrote: ... It's also apparent that a number of people are willing to buy both ...

An important determination, regardless of if they are "capable," is would either of these grinders be recommended as an espresso grinder?


This verdict might change when the grinders have had more time to break in, but as it stands the verdict is practically in--Lido2 is not recommended for espresso (can be done, but probably not worth the effort especially to those new to hand grinders).
LMWDP #431

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Knock

Postby Knock » Feb 09, 2014, 12:54 pm

Hello folks - first up I need to thank Tom, Henry and importantly Carmen for carrying out this so thoroughly and on camera!

There are a couple of minor things to correct here just for accuracy's sake:

orphanespresso wrote:That, and the outer tips of the outer burr openings are obstructed on the Lido 1 due to the cylinder (same on the Knock from what I can tell) , making the opening even smaller and exaggerating the already small burr opening. We made a big point to expose 100% of the burr opening on the Lido 2, just look down the hopper, and we changed burrs to increase speed, which is a consumer preference, from all we read.

the cylinder/ hopper / body section on the Hausgrind doesn't in any way impede the beans access to the burrset as you suggest was the case on the Lido 1 (no personal knowledge of that, just your comment above) - the burrs are fully open and the hopper body part is almost exactly inline with the thinnest section of wall thickness of the burrset itself. It might be that this is one factor on the limited number of comparisons between the Lido 1 and the Hausgrind that comes into play in the difference in their performance.

If that's not easily understood by those without Doug's zen state of oneness with this particular burrset then the best way of thinking of it is that we took as much care over the access channel on the Hausgrind as Doug & Barb have with the Lido 2. This may account for some of the unusual speed / crank number metrics that you can see in the comparisons between the Hausgrind and either of the Lidos.
Peter Kilpatrick

pShoe

Postby pShoe » Feb 09, 2014, 1:06 pm

I forgot about the spring change. I agree with the silliness of comparison against titan level burrs, but it has been made with the LIDO 2. I'm sure there is some interest, and it was more of a suggestion to keep comparisons equal.

coffeedom

Postby coffeedom » Feb 09, 2014, 7:04 pm

Very thorough and well-written review and comparison. Great videos too. Truly excellent.

Interested in your thoughts about espresso and why the Hausgrind might be the more capable of the two in that scenario.

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TomC
Team HB

Postby TomC » Feb 09, 2014, 7:45 pm

Big ol' mountain of text, I apologize ( but it sums up pretty much all my take on both).

Only a guess, but maybe that 2mm difference in burrs results in an exponential increase in required effort for the Lido 2? It's likely capable of "swallowing" a greater mass of beans at one time, and thus, having more coffee to grind thru at a given time. That makes sense scientifically, since it took half as many revolutions to complete the job as the Hausgrind, it was just all that much harder to crank on though.

I'm not boasting about my strength, now I'm mostly fat, not muscle. But I'd take a stab and guess that I'm a fair bit stronger than many average folks in regards to hand and forearm strength, mainly due to an earlier hobby of gripper strength training (Captain of Crush Grippers, I could close the #2 gripper for several reps, and that's 195 pounds of force- Ironmind Enterprises ). I'd bend hot and cold rolled nails as a hobby in a few years gone by as well as various hand/grip/arm strength training. And that being said, I don't want to put the effort into what it takes to get the Lido 2 to grind, on a daily basis. At least in this beta form. Things may change.

I say that to provide perspective. I could not use the Lido2 even braced on my hip, to grind espresso without breaking a sweat, and practically being short of breath from the exertion. The many stop-starts took a great deal of determination to struggle thru to finish the task. It's not my job to re-engineer something that I didn't make, so I have no idea of whether longer handles would change anything in that regards. But Henry and I both felt clearly, that it would be much more user friendly with a big thick knob. The pinch grip style of holding the OEM knob leads to fatigue quickly, when a great deal of effort is put into grinding fine coffee we both found our fingers beginning to cramp.

The knob never slipped off or gave any hint of it being even slightly loose. It's as secure and smooth as the rotation of the whole upper grinder section.

I didn't make a video of the Lido 2 at an espresso grind fineness for two plain reasons:

(1) we couldn't set the burrs and keep them there consistently. Tightening the upper locking ring very tightly against the settings ring is necessary to keep things tight, but it's very difficult, and with only the small indented marking lines to grip on, it made for quite a chore. You had to hold the grinder carefully and mindfully as you tried to remove the catch cup, and make sure that the lower ring didn't move in the process. One thing we also should have done, for sake of thoroughness would have been to take before and after pictures of the grind setting indicator on each grind attempt before removing or even touching the glass catch cup. This would provide evidence and feedback whether it's slipping during or just after. I saw it do it during, but didn't stop to try and document every step.

(2) I didn't want my larger size and strength to give a false impression of how hard or easy it may have been. Henry can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he could even finish one grinding attempt with the Lido2 for espresso. I had to do all the grinding, then tamp with the Espro, identify which was which to my girlfriend, then leave the room. She noted which basket she handed to Henry (his back was turned to her) and Henry pulled the shots on his Quickmill Achille Lever.

I think a whole day needs to be dedicated to nothing other than just espresso, and using a hand grinder friendly espresso. The Heart Coffee was properly rested, but they're not known for overly developed roasts. I can effortlessly grind Linea Caffe Espresso on the Hausgrind, and I think to be completely fair to the Lido 2, that same coffee should be ran thru it before any major decisions are made. But I stand behind my judgement that the Hausgrind, even using the lightest cupping roast at espresso fineness, was a great deal easier to grind than using the powdery baked Illy espresso blend in the Lido 2 at anything finer than a medium coarse cupping grind.

I think a part of it is simply being unfamiliar with the grinder. With work, someone could figure out how tight to lock the upper set ring and how tight to set the lower ring, but another fear was that when tightening on the catch cup, everything slid around.

The Lido 2 beat the pants off the Hausgrind with the ease of the funnel feed. The Hausgrind beat the pants off the Lido 2 with how easy it was to set up desired grind, and how easy it was to actually use. And ultimately, subjectively, but with quite strong evidence, we both independently chose the Hausgrind a far better portable hand grinder. I could turn the knob and dose and be halfway thru grinding while Henry was still fighting with figuring out where his burr setting was, and then trying to secure them there, and verify that they stayed there. And when it was all done grinding, I could dump my dose quicker. A wide mouth funnel would shorten the time it takes for the glass catch jar for the Lido 2, but that's another tool.

I want to add one note, over the next few days, I'm going to take the Hausgrind thru a new test. I'm going to strip it and clean it (although it still looks as clean as the day I got it) then I'm going to run a series of tests where I completely eliminate the lower wooden catch cup and just grind directly into some ceramic cupping bowls. I'll do this along with the standard operating procedure of using the wooden catch cup as is, and blindly assess them to see if there's a noticeable difference. I'm curious if there is.

A tip of the hat to the Lido 2, this morning, while at work making my coffee, I still wanted to have it with me to grind with, not instead of the Hausgrind, but just to continue getting adapted to it and to enjoy its incredible taste capabilities. I find it extremely heavy, but if I had a workplace setting where I could safely leave it, and have the rubber bumper pad readily available, I think I'd be much, much more likely to lean towards the Lido 2, if and only if, it was only expected to be a cupping grinder and I didn't have to carry it with me every day. But the flavor it delivered slightly edged out the Hausgrind on all but the Geisha.

ds

Postby ds » Feb 09, 2014, 8:18 pm

Tom and Henry, the review is really well done and videos of Tom's girlfriend grinding with both give excellent idea of required grinding effort. Good job!