K.I.S.S when it comes to grinders - Page 3

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
zin1953

#21: Post by zin1953 »

cai42 wrote:I still don't know why B-Vario's buttons and levers give the user a better grind then the boring Mazzer with the one adjustable ring.
I dunno, but the last time I checked it was the burrs -- and not the buttons -- that actually ground the coffee . . .

The point IS that IF (and it's a big "if") the "buttons," as you put it, make it easier to grind, remember settings, and so on and so forth -- then they are an asset. If they are useless, then they are a waste of plastic . . .
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.

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orphanespresso

#22: Post by orphanespresso »

OT, but I can't let it pass.....McArthur Park was fine???? In who's universe?!? The few times that I've ever wanted to inflict pain on Doug...I just hum McArthur Park.

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peacecup

#23: Post by peacecup »

why don't we do it in the road?
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."

akallio

#24: Post by akallio »

zin1953 wrote:I understand the theory of what you're saying Jim, but my Mahlkönig K30 Vario seems to very consistent.
K30 also has quite optimal grind adjustment. A simple adjustable ring with lock, instead of springs like in Mazzer. The ring is so large in diameter that it is easy to move accurately. Simple and efficient.

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dsc

#25: Post by dsc »

Hi guys,
One problem with the "complicated" grinders is that they are complicated in the wrong way. Grinding 4.8 seconds is a lousy way to dose. If the coffee is a little older or younger, or if the grind fineness changes, 4.8 seconds could be 13 grams or 15 grams. Even an old fashioned doser is a lot more accurate.
The reason for time-dosing is the ease of implementing such a mechanism. Even a simple NE-555 timer will do if you want to build one yourself.
If they are going to make a complicated single dose grinder, they should weigh the grinds, not time them, and they should be programmable in 1/10ths grams. The logical way to do this is to have a no waste design like the Vario (or Versalab) and weigh the beans as they go in.
And how exactly do you want to weigh the beans?
...the boring Mazzer with the one adjustable ring.
It's simple and it works perfectly, who cares if it hasn't got a beeper/fancy lights/USB features.

Regards,
dsc.

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Bluecold

#26: Post by Bluecold »

Or a stepper motor to program the revolutions of the grinder blades. Don't know if that's more accurate, but it wouldn't be that hard to implement.

The best* solution would of course be a grinder which ground green beans and a laser system which could count the correct amount of grinds, roast every individual particle, and blast away grounds that were out of spec. Sorry for going _way_ out of the scope of this topic

*best defined as in "most awesome".
LMWDP #232
"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death I Shall Fear No Evil For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing."

akallio

#27: Post by akallio »

dsc wrote: And how exactly do you want to weigh the beans?
You could have something like a regular doser but for whole beans. So basically you thwack the dosing handle, beans end up in a scale and when there's enough you start the grinder and a trapdoor mechanism dumps the beans to the grinder.

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dsc

#28: Post by dsc »

Hi again,

such a mechanism wouldn't be able to guarantee 1g accuracy, not even mentioning 0.1g. What if you end up with more beans that you want? say the doser dispenses 2g more, then what? how do you get rid of the excess 2g? In my opinion the only method that would work with whole beans is counting how many beans you have any assuming that each weighs around 0.1g. That's of course not precise and wouldn't work with all coffees, but then again a whole-bean method is not a good idea.

You need a mechanism that can weigh the ground beans on the fly, some sort of horizontal scanning or a very precise dispenser for ground beans. Of course you would have to grind more than you want, dispense precisely the amount you want and get rid of the rest.

Regards,
dsc.

akallio

#29: Post by akallio »

such a mechanism wouldn't be able to guarantee 1g accuracy, not even mentioning 0.1g. What if you end up with more beans that you want? say the doser dispenses 2g more, then what? how do you get rid of the excess 2g?
I don't see why? It should be possible design doser vanes or something similar to Versalab hopper that allows you to drop beans from the hopper with the accuracy of a single bean, without making it awkward.

And of course the scale part of the hopper should be open so that picking a bean or two is possible in case you overdosed and want to get it exactly right.

Regarding dosing whole beans vs grounds: whole beans have a slightly smaller maximum accuracy, but a lot of people happily rely on methods that are significantly more imprecise in terms of weight. I have hard time believing that accuracy of a single bean was not enough for (nearly) everyone.
You need a mechanism that can weigh the ground beans on the fly, some sort of horizontal scanning or a very precise dispenser for ground beans. Of course you would have to grind more than you want, dispense precisely the amount you want and get rid of the rest.
From my point of view, these kind of "coffee management issues" should be tackled in the stage where coffee is easy to handle: whole beans. Grounds are a lot more difficult to manouver, go stale etc.

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dsc

#30: Post by dsc »

Hi again,

I'm quite sure that the Versalab hopper doesn't offer precision higher than 1g, it's simply a volume-kind of dispensing, it doesn't even weigh anything (why? because that's quite hard to do automatically). You can pick single beans out, but how will you know what's the current weight? you can of course install an electronic scale somewhere in the mechanism, but picking out beans after weighing doesn't sound like the best idea (you'd probably be better of doing it all manually).

I'm currently using a timer-based dispensing method which works well and is simple to implement (and cheap!). Sure you have to change the settings from time to time as the beans go stale and when you swap coffee, but I don't think it's a huge problem. On the other hand, wouldn't I want a coffee grind which would offer precise (+-0.1g) weight-based dosing? Sure, I'd love one, but it doesn't look like it's going to be designed anytime soon.

Regards,
dsc.