Is bigger the better - titan flat burrs

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
kongc

#1: Post by kongc »

The scope of my topic is just on flat burrs - conicals are not considered

So, with my knowledge and experience on titan flats (over 80mm is a titan)

Do larger burrs always taste better?

I am asking in a single dose scenario, simply on the "best taste possible" .. not interested in shop loads, or kgs per week.

I currently have Mazzer Mini 58mm, Mazzer Super Jolly 64mm and three Mazzer Major 83mm

I am thinking if I should go for Compak R140 (140mm) or EK43 - 98mm for the "best taste" but would I notice any difference vs the Mazzer Major?

I do notice going from Mini to SJ - Jump in quality as in much smoother taste
SJ to Major - slight jump again but slightly smoother and much sweeter (I love the 83mm burr sweetness)

Jeff

#2: Post by Jeff »

The larger the burrs, the better the runout of the system has to be, the more critical alignment becomes. At some point you reach diminishing returns, if not worse results, if you're purely looking for low-volume, in-cup quality.

kongc

#3: Post by kongc »

oh yes, that is what I am interested in.

Has anyone worked out what is the ideal flat burr size then ???

RobindG

#4: Post by RobindG »

I wonder if you get better results with larger than 80mm. If you look at Kafatek, people are complaining about the Max, not able to grind fine enough. I don't see any users complain about their 75mm flat. Like Jeff wrote, run-out becomes sooo critical with a larger diameter...

Don't forget the grind speed! Lately that's what everybody agrees on: slow grinding extracts a sweeter espresso.

jevenator

#5: Post by jevenator »

RobindG wrote:I wonder if you get better results with larger than 80mm. If you look at Kafatek, people are complaining about the Max, not able to grind fine enough. I don't see any users complain about their 75mm flat. Like Jeff wrote, run-out becomes sooo critical with a larger diameter...

Don't forget the grind speed! Lately that what everybody agrees on: slow grinding extracts a sweeter espresso.
And no one really will be complaining about the Ultra when it comes out (I hope). Main difference? The type of 98mm burrs used. MAX uses LU burrs which are not entirely dedicated espresso burrs. Another thing is that people try to run long PI profiles with their MAX with LU burrs which is another no go for that burr set. That's why you see so many complaints. You can't take traditional methods and apply it to everything.

I feel like when you get to well aligned titan grinders, it's not a conversation of "better" but preference in flavor profile.
LMWDP #643

Eiern

#6: Post by Eiern »

Yes burr geometry will have big impact once you're aligned. Stock burrs on EK vs. High Uniformity is totally different taste + behaviour, it's hard to even grind for espresso with stock aligned, and most users end up doing a different style of longer espresso anyways as you don't maintain 9 bars and 1:2 the classic way don't taste good either.

Lagom users with standard burrs plus the two different SSP geometries report very different experiences as well. Totally different styles, and suited to different beans and preferences.

Tzuyu

#7: Post by Tzuyu »

Don't forget the monolith flat and max will be getting new Shuriken burrs update soon, no info yet, but hope to see great results, although I'm Leaning turn lagom, it's still the back of my mind.

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Bluecold
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#8: Post by Bluecold »

Jeff wrote:The larger the burrs, the better the runout of the system has to be, the more critical alignment becomes. At some point you reach diminishing returns, if not worse results, if you're purely looking for low-volume, in-cup quality.
I think you're an order of magnitude off in your comparison. Runout is measured in tens of microns. The burr gap is measured in hundreds of microns. If you cant grind fine enough due to runout of the burr, the runout is massive. Also, I don't think runout scales linearly. It's not like the 98mm burr is mounted on a 75mm carrier. Grinding of the burr happens on the same grinder, resulting in the same tolerance. It's not like the 98mm burr is cantilevered over an edge. Same goes for the carrier. Either in a lathe or a mill, there is no reason the carrier has a larger tolerance if it's larger. Assuming the carrier rides on it's own bearings, like a milling spindle, the runout resulting from the bore being crooked should be minimal, but that would be the only part I can think of where tolerances scale linearly.
LMWDP #232
"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death I Shall Fear No Evil For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing."

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Peppersass
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#9: Post by Peppersass »

Jeff wrote:The larger the burrs, the better the runout of the system has to be, the more critical alignment becomes. At some point you reach diminishing returns, if not worse results, if you're purely looking for low-volume, in-cup quality.
I'm with Bluecold on this.

If Max users are complaining that they can't grind fine enough, it's likely that the burrs aren't producing enough fines. I believe this is a downside to highly unimodal grinders. Fines are critical for espresso flow rate, but it's a Goldilocks kind of thing -- you don't want too many fines or too few fines. I suspect this is why Denis decided to make his own burrs and have two versions, one optimized for light-to-medium roasts (probably producing more fines) and one optimized for medium-to-dark roasts (probably producing fewer fines).

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Peppersass
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#10: Post by Peppersass »

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