Ion Beam static reducer - Page 3

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
coyote-1
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#21: Post by coyote-1 »

Iceman2913 wrote:This was an unnecessary comment.

Also Lance commented on it " it looks ugly, and can only see it practically being used in cafe settings" his Instagram live today.
Oh c'mon. You can't see the humor in that post?

As for Lance's words, I cannot imagine that occurring. I've never seen a cafe barista do anything other than grind and tamp. No WDT, no other DT... in fact, the majority don't even bother with a scale. The only folks I can imagine spending $150 on an ionizing device in order to remove static are folks who, well... never mind. I'm on meds to recover from a major operation just this past Tuesday, and don't want to get into any more trouble lol

rmongiovi
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#22: Post by rmongiovi »

Perhaps unnecessary, but worth keeping in mind. Just like the comment about the Zerostat. The audiophile market has been famous for snake oil products for decades. $500 power cords, multi-thousand dollar speaker cables, and in the 21st century cables and network switches that somehow magically make the bits of digitally encoded and compressed music better. You should keep a healthy amount of skepticism when faced with these products. If examined scientifically what are the chances that these things can actually work?

ab
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#23: Post by ab »

rmongiovi wrote:I'm a bit unclear how this is supposed to actually remove static charge from the coffee. In order to minimize the static charge on the coffee grounds you'd have to know if they were positively or negatively charged and then apply just the right amount of the opposite charge to neutralize them. If you apply the wrong charge you've made things worse, and if you apply too much of the right charge then all you've done is reverse the polarity on the grounds without actually "minimizing" anything.

The description sounds like this is just a seat of the pants thing where you wave the magic static reducer over the grounds coming out of the grinder and convince yourself you've improved the situation.
From the blog

"The Ion Beam generates negative ions on the front end and positive ions on the back. It can be adjusted depending on the coffee's charge."

rmongiovi
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#24: Post by rmongiovi »

Sure, and applying charges, positive or negative, is the literal definition of static charge.

It's only a "reducer" if you can somehow apply the correct amount and opposite charge as what was already there. That's the part I'm missing. How do you determine that your coffee grounds have a charge of +X and how do you measure a charge of -X so that you can end up with neutral?

If your coffee is at +X and you can manage to apply a charge of -Y, where 0 < abs(Y) < 2 * abs(X), then you've reduced the static. the 0 end of that inequality would leave the static charge unchanged and the 2 * abs(X) end of the inequality would change the static charge from +X to -X. Anything more than that and you're worse off than you were when you started.

So how do you do that? Especially given that environmental factors are going to make the original static charge difference each time you try this.

malling
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#25: Post by malling replying to rmongiovi »

In principle I agree with you here, but I would imagine you take a dose, if not correct you change it for the following. I think this is not really meant to be completely perfect but just to reduce it those it doesn't need to level out entirely.

coyote-1
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#26: Post by coyote-1 »

rmongiovi wrote:Sure, and applying charges, positive or negative, is the literal definition of static charge.

It's only a "reducer" if you can somehow apply the correct amount and opposite charge as what was already there. That's the part I'm missing. How do you determine that your coffee grounds have a charge of +X and how do you measure a charge of -X so that you can end up with neutral?

If your coffee is at +X and you can manage to apply a charge of -Y, where 0 < abs(Y) < 2 * abs(X), then you've reduced the static. the 0 end of that inequality would leave the static charge unchanged and the 2 * abs(X) end of the inequality would change the static charge from +X to -X. Anything more than that and you're worse off than you were when you started.

So how do you do that? Especially given that environmental factors are going to make the original static charge difference each time you try this.
Ok, I'm gonna flip my previous script in this thread for a moment.

The odds are very very low that your grinds will carry a negative static charge today, and a positive charge tomorrow. If that occurred, then today's clingy grinds should neutralize with yesterday's and it all should fall into your portafilter.

We all know that's not what happens.

Odds are high that the charge in question will be like, and similar, not only for one grinder in one home but for most grinders in most homes. So if you can figure that out, and then design an ion beam generator that can make the clinging grinds magically fall out of the chute, that's awesome. Hypothetically such a generator could quickly go from positive thru zero to negative, and in that time any clinging grinds of any charge should fall out. That would cover all scenarios.

My commentary was more about the cost, along with the review paradigm. I can go to my local supermarket and pick up a laser pointer for three bucks, and an ionizer- ozone generator for freshening a car or a room costs like thirty bucks. There are folks who will pay $150 for such a gadget; I'm not one of them. But I do want to see it in operation.

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AssafL
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#27: Post by AssafL »

rmongiovi wrote:Sure, and applying charges, positive or negative, is the literal definition of static charge.

It's only a "reducer" if you can somehow apply the correct amount and opposite charge as what was already there. That's the part I'm missing. How do you determine that your coffee grounds have a charge of +X and how do you measure a charge of -X so that you can end up with neutral?

If your coffee is at +X and you can manage to apply a charge of -Y, where 0 < abs(Y) < 2 * abs(X), then you've reduced the static. the 0 end of that inequality would leave the static charge unchanged and the 2 * abs(X) end of the inequality would change the static charge from +X to -X. Anything more than that and you're worse off than you were when you started.

So how do you do that? Especially given that environmental factors are going to make the original static charge difference each time you try this.
So I don't think that is how it works....

So regarding polarity: a triboelectric charging is typically a particular polarity depending on the rubbing materials. Some like to give up electrons, other prefer to sequester electrons. So it is likely the coffee would be mostly positive (or negative - haven't measured it. maybe will try rubbing some coffee with TiN and checking with an electrometer...).

And regarding the amount of charge (number of electrons) - excess electrons will be repelled by any excess electrons and fly around looking for a dust particle or a surface.
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

Pressino
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#28: Post by Pressino »

There has been some research done into where coffee fits in the triboelectric series (which describes the relative ease of transfer of electrons between two different materials when they come into contact with each other). In the case of coffee grinding, the two substances are going to be the coffee beans and the grinder parts (mostly some ferrous metal for the burrs and perhaps other metals, like aluminum for the other parts like the grind chamber and chute). It seems that in most cases the coffee grounds acquire electrons and become negatively charged, as in this study of a mixture consisting of coffee, sugar, and creamer powders:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nd_fouling

Thus I suspect the anti-static wand is going to produce a stream of positively ionized "stuff" in the air directed towards the staticky coffee grounds.

rmongiovi
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#29: Post by rmongiovi »

In a properly constructed motorized grinder the chassis would be connected to the ground wire of the three pronged plug. That will provide a path for the static to dissipate. The issue is that coffee isn't a terribly good conductor so unless the surface of the coffee ground actually contacted metal there wouldn't be much conduction. That's why a humid environment (RDT) helps since water with dissolved particles is reasonably conductive.

To address some previous comments, I'm not questioning that the coffee grounds somehow alternate between being sometimes positive and sometimes negative (although the Ion Beam ad does say different coffees may be positive or negative). My issue is that whichever sign the static charge has the amount will vary depending on the environment. Is the ambient humidity high? Probably low static charge. Low? Probably higher static charge. Unless you can measure that and determine the correct amount of neutralization you're just as likely to make things worse as better. In any case, it sounds like it would be pretty finicky to me.

Most of my difficulties with static have been with a plastic catch cup that provided no path to ground (and probably contributed its own static charge). A proper path to ground out a static charge is going to work regardless of charge because like charges repel and will naturally dissipate if given the opportunity. Trying to neutralize them with an equal and opposite charge would take more work.

GDM528
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#30: Post by GDM528 »

rmongiovi wrote:Most of my difficulties with static have been with a plastic catch cup that provided no path to ground (and probably contributed its own static charge). A proper path to ground out a static charge is going to work regardless of charge because like charges repel and will naturally dissipate if given the opportunity. Trying to neutralize them with an equal and opposite charge would take more work.
I started using my breath to fog the inside of my plastic catch cup, just before I start the grinder. For me, that completely eliminated fines ejecting out of the cup. Alternatively, I've used my RDT mister to lightly spray the inside of the cup - also very effective and less likely to freak out any guests watching me make coffee for them.