liquidmetal wrote:1. No, I was not able to establish a pattern with the NZ as opposed to what was good and what was bad. The sette is fine with however many in a row that I pull, so I think that rules out the machine.

2. You could be onto something with that. I will have to go back to the Decent 20g sometime soon and see if i can establish a better pattern. After pulling shots with the NZ I had to spend a little more time making sure the basket was cleaned out and no holes were blocked.

Also, I don't know if you caught up on the whole thread, but the issue is fixed by using the stock baskets. So its something related to the Decent baskets and how it performs compared to the stock ones...

I couldn't see clearly enough from your video, but it did seem to me that you were WDTing 'selectively' or 'locally' in the basket, perhaps addressing specific clumps?

I use a similar tool (Londinium distribution tool) and I have found that somewhat vigorous stirring of the entire basket in both CW and CCW directions gives good results. It might be that, IF you have been using your WDT tool here and there in your basket, it creates inconsistencies across the puck.

I can't speak to Decent baskets, but my experience with VST baskets has been that they are finicky and unnecessary for my needs, and I get better results and taste from my stock baskets. I think there is a certain cache' to "precision" and "competition" baskets. I understand the value if one is running a cafe with multiple machines/groups/portafilters and you want them all to be matched. Not a requirement for me, though, and, even when getting the VSTs dialed in there was no discernible difference in taste compared against my stock baskets. So your result with your stock baskets mirrors mine to some degree.

Coffeechap wrote:I completely agree they are not the same thing at all, you have to shake and stir the ground coffee from the niche because the particle size is all over the place. Doing his aids in how those particles are mixed up and ultimately have they are distributed into the portafilter. Don't get me wrong you getgtasty coffee from the niche but! When grinding as designed it gives different grind at the start to the finish.

Try filling the hopper and then grinding 15 grams and see what happens then!

^ this. I've been saying this for years, single dosing creates a dose which gradually gets coarser. The very first few grams will be the finest you'll get for that particular setting and then it gets coarser as the burr chamber empties and there's less load on the burr (as in it's not packed full of beans which are gradually getting ground and get broken down into smaller and smaller bits). This is just how burrs work and it doesn't matter if you're using a Niche, a Mazzer or an EK, all will suffer from this to some extent.

Also static will make all the super fine particles stick to surfaces inside the grinder and thus cause inconsistant results. Do yourself a favour and do the following:

- use WDT on your dose, either a drop (or two) of water or get yourself a tiny atomizer bottle and give the dose two sprays with that

- really mix your dose post grind, ideally with a small whisk or needle, whatever works

Then re-pull shots and see if it makes a difference.

T.

Bret wrote:I couldn't see clearly enough from your video, but it did seem to me that you were WDTing 'selectively' or 'locally' in the basket, perhaps addressing specific clumps?

I use a similar tool (Londinium distribution tool) and I have found that somewhat vigorous stirring of the entire basket in both CW and CCW directions gives good results. It might be that, IF you have been using your WDT tool here and there in your basket, it creates inconsistencies across the puck.

I can't speak to Decent baskets, but my experience with VST baskets has been that they are finicky and unnecessary for my needs, and I get better results and taste from my stock baskets. I think there is a certain cache' to "precision" and "competition" baskets. I understand the value if one is running a cafe with multiple machines/groups/portafilters and you want them all to be matched. Not a requirement for me, though, and, even when getting the VSTs dialed in there was no discernible difference in taste compared against my stock baskets. So your result with your stock baskets mirrors mine to some degree.

I think you're definitely onto something with the critiques on the preshot prep. I was definitely going off of visual feedback in the basket - I will try something more consistent/thoughtful with the WDT. Do you WDT in the shaker or in the basket?

FYI, pulled a shot this morning. Using the stock breville basket - I went from 18g to 20.5g for this George Howell coffee I've been using. I'm now convinced the stock breville basket is not made for 18g. More like 20-22. For prep - I put 2 drops of water on the beans - WAYYYY less static and just better looking/manageable grounds directly into the portafilter. I then did vigorous WDT in the portafilter, using a toothpick heh. Combination of all these steps resulted in a much better looking shot. Next step is to continue to experiment with prep/grindsize/and then decide to mod the BDB and do slayer shots (off-topic)

Try grinding into a container and whisking the grinds in that before transfering over to the basket.

T.

Maybe it was an issue of static but when I tried that before, I theorize that the transfer creates more clumps. You're essentially WDT'ing, and then shooting yourself in the foot by upsetting the distribution in the transfer to the portafilter basket.

Matt, glad to hear you've got to the root of the issue! It was a distribution issue it seems (with the Decent basket being particularly finicky?).

Coffeechap wrote:
Grind out three doses of you prefers dose, 15, 18, 20 whatever.

Take the first third of each dose and put them together, then the second third of each and put them together and the the third third of each and put them together.

Now pull shots which each of these doses

Report back on the speed of each

You will then have your answer

^+1

I have done that tests (on other grinders in the past) and am convinced. I wouldn't say the 'particle distribution' are all over the place, but just wide enough to pull very differently. That's why WDT is so critical for single dosing in homogenizing the ground. If you homogenize/WDT the coffee well, there is zero difference with grinding with hopper-ful (and tons of retention associated ).

Btw, using the Niche this morning, I tried grinding into the cup and transferred into the basket, resisting any effort to perform WDT. Using the VST 18g basket, I definitely get obvious channeling, although drinkable (this is in agreement with my past experience and as I wrote in the review "the Niche will benefit from WDT"). So my experience don't exactly reflect Dave's experience of prep-free workflow. Perhaps it will get better as the burrs break in?

dale_cooper wrote:Maybe it was an issue of static but when I tried that before, I theorize that the transfer creates more clumps. You're essentially WDT'ing, and then shooting yourself in the foot by upsetting the distribution in the transfer to the portafilter basket.

I see a lot of focus being placed on the clumps (not directed at you Joe, just happens we come across it here ). In my experience, clump is not an issue. The homogeneity of the coffee is (as discussed above). After I do the chopstick stir in the cup and transfer the ground into the basket, I do get quite a fair bit of clumps but the shot pull perfectly fine after tamping.

As an anti-evidence against the clump being the culprit theory, the super fluffy ground from Hg-1 (zero clump) channels like crazy if I don't WDT the ground at all. So it is clear to me clump is not the culprit at all. Clump usually presents simultaneously with channeling but they're not a cause-and-effect relationship. So the point I want to make here is, focus on the homogeneity of the coffee, not clumps.

liquidmetal wrote:I think you're definitely onto something with the critiques on the preshot prep. I was definitely going off of visual feedback in the basket - I will try something more consistent/thoughtful with the WDT. Do you WDT in the shaker or in the basket?

I grind directly into the basket/portafilter, WDT in the basket. I don't have an NZ, so my comments are more general.

I would add that with my previous grinder I found, oddly, that WDT created clumps and problems. A couple other owners of the same grinder reported similar issues. The grinder was a Breville SGP, and I was not using the Londinium tool, but rather the usual suspects (tooth pick, skewer, paper clip, tiny whisks, etc.). My guess it the nature of the grind out of that conical made clumping easier. So any WDT perhaps increased the opportunity for them to latch on to each other.

I will also say that I never had a good, much less consistently good, result with WDT until I got the Londinium tool, even with my MonoFlat. So my skill/technique with WDT is absolutely suspect.

You might try doing everything the same except for skipping WDT, in addition to doing a thorough WDT.

You all have given me plenty to think about and experiment. I think my issues were a combo of several things leading to a poor experience, I'm getting significantly better results now and once I really get a feel for the grinder will add the Decent basket back into the workflow.