If Niche Zero makes a v2, what changes would you like to see? - Page 7

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
Espresso_Junky

#61: Post by Espresso_Junky » Sep 10, 2019, 2:17 pm

truemagellen wrote:"I won't buy a Cessna because it won't hold 20 passengers"
I wouldn't want a slow a$$ plane either.

DaveC

#62: Post by DaveC » replying to Espresso_Junky » Sep 10, 2019, 2:29 pm

It would depend on the type of flying you want to do.....I used to fly gliders, I preferred them to Jets or fast propeller aircraft. Some people like Yachts, others powerboats. Some people like cycling at the weekend, others like to thrash about in a sports car.

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truemagellen

#63: Post by truemagellen » Sep 10, 2019, 2:55 pm

Espresso_Junky wrote:I wouldn't want a slow a$$ plane either.
I won't buy a Cessna because it doesn't accelerate like a fighter jet.

As stated before the Niche Zero is certainly better looking in person, looks like a high quality retro appliance. It is not for everyone, including me who is using it for testing and find it perfectly fine looking just not for me and my taste since I like modern lines. The Cafelot Robot is an awesome machine brilliant, also similar Retro look not my taste would I buy one? absolutely as there is no other competing option.

Niche is a single doser primarily for espresso and small batch brews. That is it, that was the design goals and it is under $700. That is what it is. Take it or leave it.

If you leave it I think you will be much happier with the Eureka Atom Pro which should handle single dose very well, looks sleek like a fighter jet, and can handle larger batch brews, has a bellows built in....but it does cost $1200+ ordering from Italy and when it comes stateside will be likely around $1500. That is the price at which you will have what you want either in this or the Langom 64 by Option-O which may or may not match the Eureka.

The great news is all these new grinders coming out adding competition and options thanks to wonderful people out there who are pushing our hobby to new heights...and I'd say most of them are right here on this forum. So please join in and come up with your ideas for the future and perhaps a company will integrate them into design and you will have benefited us all. You have that power...the destructive language just gets ignored on here we are mostly too old for that $h1t.

coldwarkid

#64: Post by coldwarkid » Sep 12, 2019, 10:30 am

It's surprising that only one person has asked the question as to why there should be a version 2? The membership of this forum is heavily US based and I think that this thread is highlighting a fundamental difference in the attitude of your average American and European.

Sweeping generalisation alert ...

Many Europeans, especially those from more conservative backgrounds like the Italians, Germans and Spanish have a very " if it's not broken, why fix it?" attitude. Think about the aesthetics of the Porsche 911 or even the way an E61 grouphead works and you'll see what I mean. How much has the Rancilio Silvia changed since it came out?

Americans don't tend to rest on their laurels as much and like to tinker. Personally I feel this is great, especially with cutting edge technology, but with other things the cynical part of me feels they are just doing it to get people to part with their money on an endless and fruitless upgrade path that ultimately just leads to more landfill.

One of the main reasons the Niche has been successful is that it is much more simple and affordable than other low retention, large burr single dosers. Things like flat burrs and Augers could involve a complete re-design and force costs up for something that is already on the market and reliable in every sense of the word.

If I'm to side with my friends over the pond and their philosophy for a while and be a tinkerer, I'll say I'm not a fan of the aesthetics at all and it would be good if they did a few more cup sizes.

I'm also surprised so many people feel they'd prefer a rocker to a toggle switch. I've personally always found them more durable. Maybe that's just me.

mianor

#65: Post by mianor » Sep 13, 2019, 9:46 am

As a European I can tell you that this "if it's not broken, why fix it?" attitude is something I have never even heard of. The Porsche that you mentioned for example has been heavily modified since it was introduced back in the sixties. Most if not all products receive minor or major updates based on user feedback, reports from the service team etc.

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redbone

#66: Post by redbone » Sep 13, 2019, 10:26 am

coldwarkid wrote:It's surprising that...........................................
I'm also surprised so many people feel they'd prefer a rocker to a toggle switch. I've personally always found them more durable. Maybe that's just me.
La Pavoni made the change on the Europiccola from toggle to rocker in 1973. Worked on many pre and post 73 LPE and can attest that the rocker switch is durable even after 45+ years. Rocker switches have added safety vs toggle switches. 1) Toggle switches can accidentally be engaged by snagging or mild impact of bat. 2) Children are more apt to engage a bat style lever vs a depressed rocker switch. A turn switch such as the one used by Fiorenzato is best as it is difficult for young hands to engage although large and easy to grip. Aesthetics are subjective can't recall any mainstream manufacture using toggle switches in the past 40 years. Reminds me or retrofitting car fog lights back in the 80's or high school electronic projects.
Between order and chaos there is espresso.
Semper discens.


Rob
LMWDP #549

eman5oh

#67: Post by eman5oh » Sep 13, 2019, 8:38 pm

One thing that does not sit well with me that may prove not to be an issue but still worries me a bit is the plastic gearbox. My hope is that it will last for the life of the grinder. I have had two Baratza grinders that have had gearbox failures involving plastic gears and a third one with heavy use at my work that has not failed. So I know its a small sample set but it still makes me worry about the long term durability of the grinder given my past experience. A cogged belt drive system or a steel gearbox would make me feel more comfortable.

coldwarkid

#68: Post by coldwarkid » Sep 15, 2019, 8:44 am

mianor wrote:As a European I can tell you that this "if it's not broken, why fix it?" attitude is something I have never even heard of. The Porsche that you mentioned for example has been heavily modified since it was introduced back in the sixties. Most if not all products receive minor or major updates based on user feedback, reports from the service team etc.
I was talking about the aesthetics. Over the course of 50 years the styling has stayed true to the original concept and deliberately so. Many of the cosmetic changes have had more to do with safety of pedestrians and aerodynamics than change for the sake of it. I'm not saying that it hasn't changed at all, or that it hasn't been tweaked, but in over half a century it has retained an unmistakable 911 look. Now look on the other hand at how much a Ford Fiesta has changed in thirty years. The modern car shares a name with the thirty year old model but it could hardly be considered as unmistakably the same car.

When I say "if it isn't broke, why fix it" I mean that Europeans are more inclined to have the opinion that if something works satisfactorily why change it? Obviously if a product is getting feedback from users or the service team that things aren't right they'll need to be addressed, that's not the same as a product, ie Niche, working perfectly well but being changed anyway.

The point I was trying to make was that there has been very little groundbreaking innovation in the domestic grinder or espresso machine design and build since the 60s, from any European country, be that the Italians, Germans, Brits or whoever. It's only relatively recently that things have started to be improved in a big way. Up until a few years ago, many home enthusiasts were taking some very large and expensive commercial beasts like the Mazzer Major and modifying them with sellotape and bits of cardboard to try and make them more user friendly in a domestic setting. The reason for this is there just wasn't anything on the market that was truly suitable and relatively affordable.

coldwarkid

#69: Post by coldwarkid » Sep 15, 2019, 9:11 am

redbone wrote:La Pavoni made the change on the Europiccola from toggle to rocker in 1973. Worked on many pre and post 73 LPE and can attest that the rocker switch is durable even after 45+ years. Rocker switches have added safety vs toggle switches. 1) Toggle switches can accidentally be engaged by snagging or mild impact of bat. 2) Children are more apt to engage a bat style lever vs a depressed rocker switch. A turn switch such as the one used by Fiorenzato is best as it is difficult for young hands to engage although large and easy to grip. Aesthetics are subjective can't recall any mainstream manufacture using toggle switches in the past 40 years. Reminds me or retrofitting car fog lights back in the 80's or high school electronic projects.
Now that I think about it, maybe I just felt rocker switches were less reliable because they are so much more common and therefore obviously I'd be more likely to encounter problems at some point. I still like it though.

The point you make about children being more prone to interact with a toggle is a good one. I can't think of a circumstance were this would be likely to put a child in danger with the Niche, but I have an espresso machine with one and both the switch and especially the surrounding area get very hot.

iploya

#70: Post by iploya » Sep 15, 2019, 2:11 pm

Why a version 2 --

I was not an early backer, so I did not follow its development. But as a crowd-funded option I presume there was a limited budget that was sufficient to achieve its design goals with a bright/knowledgeable developer without the backing of a formal R&D department and distribution channels.

The V1 successfully and brilliantly achieved its functional design goals, and is in and of itself a commercial success, judging by the fact that they are selling them faster than they can make them.

That makes it ripe for being picked up by a major corporate investor, one with a dedicated R&D, marketing, design department, and manufacturing and distribution channels to take it to the next level. (I have no idea if this is what the designer's plans are, but he has certainly positioned himself if that's the direction he wants to take it). I would imagine a major corporation might build on the proven functional design and do an esthetic makeover, as well as identify and work out any kinks, and possibly branch off to different options and price points.
--AB