F.M. wrote:Perhaps it just goes to show, consistency is more important that how it's achieved?

Of course. I have yet to see a great (or poor) shop that weighs its espresso doses. But, I do know weighing is often used by top shops in training, so that baristas have a feel for proper dosing ranges and can achieve consistency. One leading group I'm familiar with won't unleash their new baristas until they consistently dose within 0.5 g by sight and feel (and grinder timer).

Interesting side note: at the cafe I mentioned, the barista showed me the tamper they use. It had graduated rings around the base which would line up with the edge of the basket, showing if their tamp was level and if they were over or under, and by how much.

So I suspect, using this method, they could get a consistent dose to +/-.5g, as you said. I wonder if, at that point, they just cut the underdosed shots off early, and let the overdosed ones go a bit longer. I am skeptical that they could just look at a pile of grounds and say "that's 17.3g, a bit short". Who knows.

Sorry to beat a dead horse. I am pondering all this as I try to adjust my workflow from scale/doserless to using a doser w/o scale.

Go to your top cafes repeatedly, go with a group and sip each other's shots, then decide how consistent they are. My sampling of 3rd wave places in Chicago and NYC is too small to give a percentage; but I can say for certain that many of them are inconsistent and that these prior points are not in accord with my experience.

Let me put this bluntly and apologize ahead of time for the insult.

I do not believe in the reviews of deaf music critics, even when they use oscilloscopes. Weighing and adjusting the dose to control the taste creates the same improvement in espresso as moving from oscilloscopes to ears creates in sound perception. Using timers to weigh coffee, on the other hand, is like using an oscilloscope to hear. So I have stopped believing people who do not, or have not spent a few weeks, weighing shots and adjusting doses, when they talk about tuning shot taste or about shops achieving consistency.

When I visited Godshot cafe in Berlin, they weighed every shot. It was very impressive. It only adds about 5-10 seconds a drink and no matter who pulled the shot, it tasted the same. But the reality is that most patrons can't tell the difference between a mediocre shot and a great one. All it has to do is best star bucks which is easy to do!

I've been using my Robur E for about 6 months and can say that for the most part, it doses within .3gm most days but some days (possibly related to humidity) the dose can be off by almost a gram. Not really acceptable for me.

I have read somewhere that capresso machines count motor revolutions when dispensing a set amount of coffee. Coffee from superautos generally tastes pretty consistent. Maybe Mazzer or any other grinder mfg can take a cue from those guys. It can't be expensive as you could basically use the scroll wheel of a computer mouse.

I believe that frequent weighing is a must; although perhaps not every shot needs to be weighed.

Different coffees grind to produce different weights per grind rotation or per grind second. Coffees also have different densities and packing characteristics. You can calibrate a certain coffee by weighing it, and then using the equivalent fill level or grind time as a substitute measurement. But that every coffee has to be retasted and recalibrated anew at least once per day.

When will cafes and roasters accept this? When it is demonstrated to them.

This is not a difficult matter. In terms of espresso talent, I do not hold a candle compared to 3rd wave baristas. But I make more accurately dialed in and more consistent shots than they do, since I have access to a much higher level of shot making technology -- the 1/10th gram scale. This is true for every HBer, even raw beginners, who weigh doses. Skill is never a substitute for the right technology; and nobody can accurately manipulate the dose of coffee without using an actual scale.

But cafes and grinder manufacturers will not spend even a day making this demonstration as long as experts with no real experience in weighing shots continue to obfuscate this very easily confirmed point.

The thing that cracks me up is that weighing a dose takes less than 5 seconds and makes a dramatic improvement as long as it is done at least occasionally (but it is so easy I do it almost every time). There are silly, difficult, time consuming steps people use when pulling shots that may or may not help and are certainly a chore. Weighing shots isn't one of them.

The best baristas I know all understand the value of weighing doses regularly.

mitch236 wrote:When I visited Godshot cafe in Berlin, they weighed every shot. It was very impressive. It only adds about 5-10 seconds a drink and no matter who pulled the shot, it tasted the same.

5 to 10 seconds only seems possible, if the grind for each shot is perfect the first time it is weighed. Did you see what their procedure is for adding and subtracting coffee when it isn't?

I'm also curious about how the coffee makes its way from the grinder to the portafilter. Do they grind into a basket and then put the basket into the portafilter?

As shown by this photo from the Godshot website, they do not single dose, although they do use a scale. Interestingly, this Berlin shop is currently featuring Intelligentsia's Black Cat.


http://picasaweb.google.com/starpie69/G ... 9807455762

I only get out the scale when I am testing or working with a new coffee. I can get within +- 0.3 grams and often closer than that just by sight. You Max will have a finger guard in the hopper. Keep the beans in that finger guard. Once the bean load gets even with the bottom of the hopper the grind will start to shift, and shift quickly. I keep around 1/4 pound in my hopper.

another_jim wrote:Different coffees grind to produce different weights per grind rotation or per grind second. Coffees also have different densities and packing characteristics

It is the rare coffee bar that changes coffees in the same grinder in the same day. What goes in the hopper at 7am is the same coffee that goes in at 7pm.

another_jim wrote:You can calibrate a certain coffee by weighing it, and then using the equivalent fill level or grind time as a substitute measurement.

This is already the practice at many of the better shops, which is how they are able to print dose recommendations on their packaging.

another_jim wrote: But that every coffee has to be retasted and recalibrated anew at least once per day.

I frankly don't know that this isn't done in some shops. It could easily become part of a shop's dialing-in procedure before they open up each morning. But, as I say, I just don't know.