Hedone grinder - looks very much like a Versalab/Titus - Page 2

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
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JohnB.

Postby JohnB. » Aug 18, 2017, 11:26 am

Gustopher wrote:They also make a espresso machine heavily 'inspired' by KVDW :roll:



Looks like a very ugly Spirit knockoff but with E61 groups. The Evo 1 group version is really odd looking.
LMWDP 267

renatoa

Postby renatoa » Aug 18, 2017, 11:47 am

Zawaya_T wrote:It is surprisingly low priced compared to the others... But if you look closely, the finish looks far from as good quality


Nothing that a polishing at a chopper service can't fix :)

The price is as relative as you can get it... The amount in outsourced parts, i.e. burrs and motor, is about $300, everything else is manufactured in house. The workforce cost is significantly lower here though...

ds

Postby ds » replying to renatoa » Aug 18, 2017, 12:08 pm

And plus there was no research, development and design involved... They just copied somebody's else hard work...

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Terranova

Postby Terranova » Aug 19, 2017, 12:42 pm

ds wrote:And plus there was no research, development and design involved... They just copied somebody's else hard work...


The hybrid burr set is an italian invention by DRM and not Versalab.
John Bicht just implemented it into the M3.

ds wrote:I suspect if John Bicht wasn't too old to pursue copycats like this one and the Titus legally none of them would be around.


Completely nonsense, John Bicht patented the M3 espresso machine but not the grinder.


ds wrote:Sure, they changed/improved on some aspects of Versalab design, but if you put them side by side normal people would think its exact same product with different finish/color.


There is a definition by law which is a bit more complex then "put them side by side and people would think it's the same product".
If manufacturers morals would be as high as yours we would still all drive a Ford Model T :D

ds

Postby ds » Aug 19, 2017, 1:39 pm

Terranova wrote:Completely nonsense, John Bicht patented the M3 espresso machine but not the grinder.

There is a definition by law which is a bit more complex then "put them side by side and people would think it's the same product".
If manufacturers morals would be as high as yours we would still all drive a Ford Modell T :D


Your materials, finishing and precision is top notch there is absolutely no doubt about that. That is beyond reproach. Design and basic construction I am sad to say is totally copied from Versalab. Let me give you an example, try drawing Mickey mouse character with different colors, higher drawing quality and resolution and change its clothing, but call it Titus Mouse and see how far you go... That's pretty much equivalent of what this is. Unless you licensed this design from Versalab in which case I apologize and retract my comments.

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HB
Admin

Postby HB » Aug 19, 2017, 2:10 pm

ds wrote:Design and basic construction I am sad to say is totally copied from Versalab.

As a website owner and occasional inventor, I know that copyright and patent law are far more complex than "It looks the same". Please, if there's a legal dispute, let the lawyers and courts decide. This thread is on cooldown for awhile. Thanks.
Dan Kehn

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Peppersass

Postby Peppersass » Aug 24, 2017, 2:38 pm

Public records indicate that the Hedone and Titus grinders do not infringe on any IP held by Versalab.

First, understand that there are utility patents and design patents. Utility patents protect unique technology that's fundamental to how the invention works and/or to the benefits it provides. Design patents protect how the invention looks or is operated.

It's unlikely that the Versalab M3, or any of the current grinders on the market, could qualify for a utility patent. It's all prior art, with nothing fundamentally unique about how they work. It's possible the Versalab grinder could qualify for a design patent, though I think even that's questionable because it doesn't look or operate all that different from similar grinders.

But it doesn't matter: the USPTO shows no utility patents or design patents on the Versalab M3 (no patents containing the words Versalab or Bicht.)

Speculation on my part, but I suspect that this is because Versalab decided the odds of getting patents were slim to none, and given the very small market for $2,000-$3,000 home grinders it certainly wouldn't be worth the very high cost of applying for a patent (it can run into the tens of thousands for a domestic US patent and into six figures for a global patent.)

I would add that the Titus grinder fixes serious flaws in the Versalab design, is made with superior materials and has much tighter specifications, albeit at higher cost. I don't have information on the Hedone grinder, but it looks like it'll be available for a much lower price than the Versalab. That's an improvement, too.

Note that commercially valuable cartoon characters are protected with a copyright, which lasts much longer. Different rules, different costs. Doesn't apply to espresso grinders.

Javier

Postby Javier » Aug 24, 2017, 3:59 pm

But it doesn't matter: the USPTO shows no utility patents or design patents on the Versalab M3 (no patents containing the words Versalab or Bicht.)

If you are only searching by brand (Versalab or Bicht), your search might not get a hit. You need to broaden that search, and spent several hours searching the databases. I know, since I am a patent examiner. :lol:
LMWDP #115

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Peppersass

Postby Peppersass » replying to Javier » Aug 24, 2017, 4:58 pm

I searched for "Versalab" and "Bicht" in all fields, not just brand or company or inventor. Also tried "coffee" and "grinder" in all fields, and got no hits for the Versalab M3. But the search did turn up a design patent for the LWW EG-1.

I don't doubt that you're right about patent searches. In the world of startups, I found out the hard way that prior art searches must be done by a qualified patent search firm. Turned out OK in the long run, but a lot of time and money was wasted due to old patents that were missed by a local lawyer, the founders and me!

bas

Postby bas » Aug 25, 2017, 5:21 pm

Very interesting grinder. Yes looks are far from original of course. The grinder is two inches taller by the way.

I have had contact with a couple of friendly people from the Romanean forum and the manufacturer. The product it self seems to be a very fine piece.

It was designed as a commercial grinder. The home version only misses the bean hopper(s) to make it more kitchen friendly. It's running in many espresso bars for some time now without belt issues as I have been told. Use of light roasts included.

Alignment seems to be pretty good as well with 0.03 mm tolerances if I am correct. I assume the double shaft bearing is responsible for it. There is a video post from a test.

Also the motor should have some extra power (120 W) compared to the Versalab (90 W?). It grinds about 2 g / s for espresso at 500 rpm.There is no need to drive the burrs before loading beans.

I like the belt cover on top as well.

So yes the design from the outside is more or less copy and paste, but that can not be said about the rest of the grinder although the concept is similar. It seems to be great value for money after all.

I have not tested this grinder myself (neither the Versalab or Titus) so far but I have to admit I am considering buying one.