Grinders, grinders, grinders.... what's wrong with me? - Page 4

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
ojt
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#31: Post by ojt »

Another vote for what Peppresass said.
Peppersass wrote:Sure, fidelity, tone, soundstage (spatial separation of voices, instruments, etc.) contribute to that, but if that's all you're paying attention to or, worse, all you're obsessing about, you're missing the musical experience, which is by far the most important factor.
I guess I'll just add that people handle this differently while some basics are necessary. I'm in the camp of trying to outlive my equipment before upgrading. If you look at my equipment you might notice I'm pretty basic and minimal (Pavoni and a Kinu M47, and Origami). I even use the OEM plastic tamper provided by Pavoni and modified by me to fit perfectly. Some might call me cheap but I'm enjoying the coffee I brew very much and think I'm pretty good at brewing it (of course this will change when I taste something much better :) ). Some others shoot for premium equipment right off the bat and hope that'll give them stellar results. I may spend years on pondering which piece of equipment is the best suite specifically for me and whether I will actually need the upgrade and will it improve the results or workflow enough to be justified. The former approach will IMHO inevitably lead to disappointments but then it's a question of financial resources available and the amount of risk one is inclined to take.

Maybe better fight the "peer pressure" of upgraditis and upgrade the beans first. Then decide whether a new grinder or something else would improve the results with the better beans. Then there are beans that are touted or marketed as top-notch (some community peer pressure on that aspect as well sometimes) but actually fall quite far from it or just aren't your thing. At that point end-game equipment will not help other than perhaps confirm the fact.

Well, at least this is the way I see it. Maybe I'm completely wrong and am just not getting good results from some beans I don't seem to like because of the equipment, but I want to realize that myself before upgrading anything. I do have a frenchpress for "debugging" though..
Osku

mgrayson
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#32: Post by mgrayson »

There was a cartoon in Stereo Review many decades ago. An audiophile is showing off his wall of electronics to a friend. There is a bucket on the floor next to the chair. The caption is "And when I flip this switch, the Oboe will sound like it's coming from the pail."

I was about as bad as they come. Giant planar speakers, steamer trunk monoblocs, tube preamp.... then I got married. But some time later, I started listening more to recordings made before 1940. Sometimes before 1915. Sound quality became irrelevant. The music quality was vastly improved. I listen on my phone now.

My hobbies have pretty much stalled at exactly what I want. Except I'd like a good lever machine. But there are no foreseeable improvements in piano technology (mine is from 1898) or lens character (resolution is all modern designers care about). So I'm done on the musical instrument and photography fronts. Thank the good lord.

Nick Name
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#33: Post by Nick Name »

I guess certain hobbies appeal to certain type of people. For example high end audio, photographic equipment, music gear, and obviously coffee gear among many other things like bicycles and some other forms of transportation or even camping gear or... (fill in your own obsession).

If this person type has enough money - or even some loose money - it may seem like a sensible move to getting a "it's only a little more expensive, my darling" gear and see, hear or taste if it makes a difference. Quite often it makes a difference, but the returns can - and quite often are - diminishing. But once we're on a quest to perfection even little improvements will make it worthwhile - or at least one can explain it like that to himself. Then the next step is to upload Youtube videos and update social media plus write to Reddit and let everyone know how life changing experience it has been. "How I truly can tell a difference - well not in a blind taste yet, but still I'm convinced how much better this new (for example) grinder is compared to anything I've had before". Of course, that will lead other people of the same type towards that same path.

There's absolutely nothing wrong in it - especially if you can still provide food for your family. It is just one way to proceed with your hobby. I wouldn't call it the most sensible way, but for some person types it may be the only one.

I've been down that road, but since I don't have endless amount of loose money, and I have to balance between my coffee gear, high end audio gear, guitars and amplifiers and even with some camera lenses, I have had to learn to do lots of studying and testing BEFORE I buy new gear. That seems to help a little.

In the end forums like HB where people can share opinions and have mostly sensible conversation are an important source - although they can also help to spread the GAS. :wink:

Eiern
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#34: Post by Eiern »

I tend to first research like crazy (I work and play with Audio/music) and then after a while after I've collected both knowledge and tools I enjoy I tend to do the smart thing and log off those forums/channels. If not I'm stuck in the constant GAS world where it's mostly just curiosity to try something new I don't really need. It's really liberating to be at the level where you like what you have and actually don't feel like upgrading any more.

After I get my Lagom P100 grinder I will also take a break from coffee equipment, as I feel the Bianca and EK + P100 will be great enough in quality and ability, and any new gear would be different but not better. I would like a spring lever for fun and the experience, but I know I don't need it. I still want to experiment and learn about coffee, but I actually don't think I'll upgrade more. I might even downgrade if a smaller grinder than my EK can best it for pourover.

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Peppersass
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#35: Post by Peppersass »

Porcupine wrote: Is this for shortwave radio?
Yes, though that term has more commonly been used for international broadcasts in the same frequency range used by Amateur Radio operators, which we like to call HF or High Frequency. Frequencies in the HF spectrum have the unique property of being able, under the right solar conditions, to bounce off the ionosphere one or more times to cover very long distances -- even the other side of the planet. A number of "modes" are available, including morse code (CW, my favorite), voice and various digital modes.

I've had HF radio contacts with every country in the world and all of their official territories. Took about 20 years to do that. Now I do radio contests in which the object is to contact as many stations as possible in a 24, 36 or 48 hour period. In some contests I've been able to contact about 100 countries on each of several frequency bands in a single weekend, and total contacts in the 3,000-4,000 range. Needless to say, the contacts go very fast -- sometime over 200 per hour.

BaristaMcBob
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#36: Post by BaristaMcBob »

I don't think you have a disorder. You're simply a well-seasoned consumer who has mastered the art of disposing disposable income.

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Peppersass
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#37: Post by Peppersass replying to BaristaMcBob »

I've never liked the term "disposable income", and I don't think of my hobby spending as "disposing". I think of it as "asset acquisition". I'm a fan of well-designed, solidly-built assets that deliver value and pleasure for many years after purchase - a decade or more -- and have high resale value (alas, that last criterion may no longer be true of my stereo gear, but I've had it for decades.)

My experience has been that compromising on quality to reduce cost often leads to upgrading and a loss on resale of the original purchase -- i.e., higher overall cost (not to mention the hassle of reselling.) If the capital is available, it's usually better to go with the higher-quality, more expensive asset. It's like any other investment decision: what's the return?

It's interesting to compare long-term asset purchases with other spending. For example, is it better to spend $200 on dinner for four at a restaurant a couple of times this summer, or buy those new-fangled burrs for my grinder that'll last for many years? Or, how about $10K for a family vacation to Europe versus a new top-of-the-line espresso machine? My wife would agree that the burrs are a better buy than the dinners, but she'd opt for the vacation every time. Her point, which is well taken, is that vacation memories can last and give pleasure for a lifetime. As I get older, I tend to agree with that more.

In another comparison, I just had to replace all four tires on my car at a cost that would allow me to upgrade my Flat to a Max, which would last for at least 10 years (probably 15-20), versus the tires lasting maybe 3-4 years. Unfortunately, tires aren't discretionary.

hemingr
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#38: Post by hemingr »

Truth be told, it seems to me this "hobby" is easy and cheap to reach absolute end game.

I think if I just want to throw money at a wall to get the absolute high end single group machine and 1-2 ultra premium grinders I can be done for less than 20K without having any way to upgrade besides custom build options. I am having a hard time simply finding a setup that would cost over 15K, plenty of space to even add a nice sample roaster.
Peppersass wrote:Seriously? I don't know anything about custom built road bikes, but:
  • A mid-range high-end stereo system can easily cost $50K. The truly possessed can spend well into the low six figures.



Professionally I am responsible for supplier selection and approval in a large tech firm (hardware) in the prosumer segment and I meet many companies. I recall a few years back I visited a potential supplier for a few days and they were doing some parts I recognized on gear I owned, mostly in the the audio segment. I mentioned this to the sales director and they told me if I was interested another customer of their was coming that day and perhaps we could have a joint dinner. Never the one to give up an opportunity, I accepted.

The other customer was in the audiophile level of gear. Ultra premium stuff. We didn't talk that much about prices or anything, just about what they care for in quality and the like.

Later I checked their website.

1. CD Player: 40K
2. Amps: between 100-500K
3. Speakers: 100-400K
4. DACS: 50-100K
5. Some device that "filtered" USB noise: 25K

For less than their "USB noise filter" one could buy the best of the best of the best in our coffee obsession.

Whenever my wife (or anyone else for that matter) tells me I spend too much on coffee stuff, I tell them this story, and mention they are lucky I am not obsessed with audio gear.

Truth be told, I am an impulsive person with plenty of disposable income, and I tend to get really invested into hobbies, spend a ludicrous amount of money, and then my interest fizzles out (I mean, no amateur needs a 2000 euro oscilloscope as a starting device for getting into electronics....).

A passion for coffee has been there since forever. I think my passion for amazing coffee started 20 years ago and it has been there through every obsession. I only got into home espresso about a year ago and I really enjoy it. A year is a long time for me to keep interested in a single topic and I am pretty convinced the end is not in sight. The point I make to friends is that it's not just the end result that matters, it's the process and the enjoyment I get from fiddling around getting something that is "hard" just right. And in the end? Everyone compliments me on my coffee.

The only issue I tend to have is that I can pretty accurately estimated what the true dev/manufacturing cost of something is, and that makes it hard to justify some really high end stuff, or make it easy to see through what I could consider a scam price (high or low).

On that note, I should probably sell my telescope stuff, that was a very expensive impulse buy gathering dust.

LewBK
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#39: Post by LewBK »

Adam Smith perhaps explained this upgrade-itis phenomenon best in his Theory of Moral Sentiments, although in the age of climate change and pollution I don't fully agree with his idea of its benefits:
How many people ruin themselves by laying out money on trinkets of frivolous utility? What pleases these lovers of toys is not so much the utility, as the aptness of the machines which are fitted to promote it. All their pockets are stuffed with little conveniencies. They contrive new pockets, unknown in the clothes of other people, in order to carry a greater number. They walk about loaded with a multitude of baubles...some of which may sometimes be of some little use, but all of which might at all times be very well spared, and of which the whole utility is certainly not worth the fatigue of bearing the burden.

Nor is it only with regard to such frivolous objects that our conduct is influenced by this principle; it is often the secret motive of the most serious and important pursuits of both private and public life.

The poor man's son, whom heaven in its anger has visited with ambition, when he begins to look around him, admires the condition of the rich. He finds the cottage of his father too small for his accommodation, and fancies he should be lodged more at his ease in a palace. He is displeased with being obliged to walk a-foot, or to endure the fatigue of riding on horseback. He sees his superiors carried about in machines, and imagines that in one of these he could travel with less inconveniency. He feels himself naturally indolent, and willing to serve himself with his own hands as little as possible; and judges, that a numerous retinue of servants would save him from a great deal of trouble. He thinks if he had attained all these, he would sit still contentedly, and be quiet, enjoying himself in the thought of the happiness and tranquillity of his situation. He is enchanted with the distant idea of this felicity. It appears in his fancy like the life of some superior rank of beings, and, in order to arrive at it, he devotes himself for ever to the pursuit of wealth and greatness. To obtain the conveniencies which these afford, he submits in the first year, nay in the first month of his application, to more fatigue of body and more uneasiness of mind than he could have suffered through the whole of his life from the want of them. He studies to distinguish himself in some laborious profession. With the most unrelenting industry he labours night and day to acquire talents superior to all his competitors. He endeavours next to bring those talents into public view, and with equal assiduity solicits every opportunity of employment. For this purpose he makes his court to all mankind; he serves those whom he hates, and is obsequious to those whom he despises. Through the whole of his life he pursues the idea of a certain artificial and elegant repose which he may never arrive at, for which he sacrifices a real tranquillity that is at all times in his power, and which, if in the extremity of old age he should at last attain to it, he will find to be in no respect preferable to that humble security and contentment which he had abandoned for it. It is then, in the last dregs of life, his body wasted with toil and diseases, his mind galled and ruffled by the memory of a thousand injuries and disappointments which he imagines he has met with from the injustice of his enemies, or from the perfidy and ingratitude of his friends, that he begins at last to find that wealth and greatness are mere trinkets of frivolous utility, no more adapted for procuring ease of body or tranquillity of mind than the tweezer-cases of the lover of toys; and like them too, more troublesome to the person who carries them about with him than all the advantages they can afford him are commodious. There is no other real difference between them, except that the conveniencies of the one are somewhat more observable than those of the other. The palaces, the gardens, the equipage, the retinue of the great, are objects of which the obvious conveniency strikes every body. They do not require that their masters should point out to us wherein consists their utility. Of our own accord we readily enter into it, and by sympathy enjoy and thereby applaud the satisfaction which they are fitted to afford him. But the curiosity of a tooth-pick, of an ear-picker, of a machine for cutting the nails, or of any other trinket of the same kind, is not so obvious. Their conveniency may perhaps be equally great, but it is not so striking, and we do not so readily enter into the satisfaction of the man who possesses them. They are therefore less reasonable subjects of vanity than the magnificence of wealth and greatness; and in this consists the sole advantage of these last. They more effectually gratify that love of distinction so natural to man. To one who was to live alone in a desolate island it might be a matter of doubt, perhaps, whether a palace, or a collection of such small conveniencies as are commonly contained in a tweezer-case, would contribute most to his happiness and enjoyment. If he is to live in society, indeed, there can be no comparison, because in this, as in all other cases, we constantly pay more regard to the sentiments of the spectator, than to those of the person principally concerned, and consider rather how his situation will appear to other people, than how it will appear to himself. If we examine, however, why the spectator distinguishes with such admiration the condition of the rich and the great, we shall find that it is not so much upon account of the superior ease or pleasure which they are supposed to enjoy, as of the numberless artificial and elegant contrivances for promoting this ease or pleasure. He does not even imagine that they are really happier than other people: but he imagines that they possess more means of happiness. And it is the ingenious and artful adjustment of those means to the end for which they were intended, that is the principal source of his admiration. But in the languor of disease and the weariness of old age, the pleasures of the vain and empty distinctions of greatness disappear. To one, in this situation, they are no longer capable of recommending those toilsome pursuits in which they had formerly engaged him. In his heart he curses ambition, and vainly regrets the ease and the indolence of youth, pleasures which are fled for ever, and which he has foolishly sacrificed for what, when he has got it, can afford him no real satisfaction. In this miserable aspect does greatness appear to every man when reduced either by spleen or disease to observe with attention his own situation, and to consider what it is that is really wanting to his happiness. Power and riches appear then to be, what they are, enormous and operose machines contrived to produce a few trifling conveniencies to the body, consisting of springs the most nice and delicate, which must be kept in order with the most anxious attention, and which in spite of all our care are ready every moment to burst into pieces, and to crush in their ruins their unfortunate possessor. They are immense fabrics, which it requires the labour of a life to raise, which threaten every moment to overwhelm the person that dwells in them, and which while they stand, though they may save him from some smaller inconveniencies, can protect him from none of the severer inclemencies of the season. They keep off the summer shower, not the winter storm, but leave him always as much, and sometimes more exposed than before, to anxiety, to fear, and to sorrow; to diseases, to danger, and to death.

But though this splenetic philosophy, which in time of sickness or low spirits is familiar to every man, thus entirely depreciates those great objects of human desire, when in better health and in better humour, we never fail to regard them under a more agreeable aspect. Our imagination, which in pain and sorrow seems to be confined and cooped up within our own persons, in times of ease and prosperity expands itself to every thing around us. We are then charmed with the beauty of that accommodation which reigns in the palaces and oeconomy of the great; and admire how every thing is adapted to promote their ease, to prevent their wants, to gratify their wishes, and to amuse and entertain their most frivolous desires. If we consider the real satisfaction which all these things are capable of affording, by itself and separated from the beauty of that arrangement which is fitted to promote it, it will always appear in the highest degree contemptible and trifling. But we rarely view it in this abstract and philosophical light. We naturally confound it in our imagination with the order, the regular and harmonious movement of the system, the machine or oeconomy by means of which it is produced. The pleasures of wealth and greatness, when considered in this complex view, strike the imagination as something grand and beautiful and noble, of which the attainment is well worth all the toil and anxiety which we are so apt to bestow upon it.

And it is well that nature imposes upon us in this manner. It is this deception which rouses and keeps in continual motion the industry of mankind. It is this which first prompted them to cultivate the ground, to build houses, to found cities and commonwealths, and to invent and improve all the sciences and arts, which ennoble and embellish human life; which have entirely changed the whole face of the globe, have turned the rude forests of nature into agreeable and fertile plains, and made the trackless and barren ocean a new fund of subsistence, and the great high road of communication to the different nations of the earth.

roadman
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#40: Post by roadman »

^^^^
Thanks for posting this gem from Adam Smith about the pursuit of wealth, power, and status--well except for the stuff about deforestation and pillaging the oceans. :roll:

After watching an episode of Better Call Saul last night, we had a family discussion about why gangsters put themselves through hell to acquire more toys and power.

Looks like Adam Smith nailed the reasons why way back in the 1700's. Coffee gewgaw, bauble, and gimcrack collectors take heed!