olutheros wrote:Got mine today. Turns out the amazon listing that's $450 with free shipping to the US is actually real, despite looking amazingly sketchy.

It might be real, but I asked the manufacturer if they listed it on Amazon. They didn't, and sounded pretty mad that someone else is drop shipping their grinder.

olutheros wrote:Got mine today. Turns out the amazon listing that's $450 with free shipping to the US is actually real, despite looking amazingly sketchy.

I think under USD 500 doesn't have import fees which is why something like the DE1 set their price at USD 500 to avoid import charges (their cost of software covers the rest). because it's ordered with amazon does that mean all that stuff is looked after? I'm really not sure but you'll probably be fine with import fees because it's under USD 500. I just bought a DF64 for IDR 500,000,000 which works out to be about USD 350. shipping was about USD 5. After a couple of weeks of use, I'm ordering some 3D print mods for popcorning, dial adjustment, and declumper (the DF64 declumper is the biggest problem). total cost with shipping for the 3D printed parts was negligible (it cost more to ship them) but total with shipping about USD 5. I don't have the mods yet but needless to say, I'm quite happy with the purchase.

It's actually $800 after Obama raised the limit. Thanks Obama, unironically.

good reason to get 2 grinders. a burr set for espresso and a burr set for filter. I'm glad Decent didn't raise their prices to match, I don't live in the US and it was a deal-breaker for me to pay taxes on something a few thousand dollars (import fees would be about 50% for me). I don't know how Decent gets away with it and I've always wondered what happens if it was damaged in shipping or lost? the value listed is only $500 which doesn't come close to compensating the loss. I would be pretty upset if a crushed DE1 came to my door with a cheque for $500 to cover the damages

DamianWarS wrote: After a couple of weeks of use, I'm ordering some 3D print mods for popcorning, dial adjustment, and declumper (the DF64 declumper is the biggest problem)

Hey Andrew, I'll jump on this since I believe that's one area where James Hoffman was too harsh in his DF64 review.

To be honest, I have the Mythos one declumper and the 3D part ready to be installed...

I know JH, in his review, found the declumper to be a flaw. To a certain extent l, he was right. They could've opted for a different design. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it at some point.

But... to be fair, for most DF64 owners, I doubt it will be as problematic as he made it seem.

With the stock burrs, you will choke your machine before choking the DF64 because of a too fine grind. Unless maybe one works with very small doses like on a Ponte Vecchio, or MAYBE some SUPER long blooming shot on a DE1 or other flow profiling machines... but those are big maybes. At least, it's not my experience with my Londinium.

However, there are known issues with the declumper associated with SSP burrs. A declumper modification seems to be a necessity in a lot of cases.

Retention? Meh... it's already quite low as it is. 0.1-0.2g of exchanged grounds won't affect a shot.

Static? It depends on many variables but this issue has been associated with single dosing grinders for a long time. Even more so with flats. He's posted videos about RDT in the past so I feel like he could've made a better job explaining it vs simply pointing out that it's not an issue with the Niche Zero. I RDT and will continue doing so with SSP MPs and Mythos One clump crusher.

Again, I don't disagree with your statement since the DF64 is not a flawless grinder. But unlike JH, I'm convinced the stock declumper will work for the vast majority.

Cheers!

Right now I must say I'm not having the best results with the high flow basket that comes with the Flair 58. As the grind size required is finer than most 58mm (LObin for example you would need to go much, much finer than your Londinium with it), I'm having a lot more clumps than I used to. Hopefully when I install the Mythos crusher things will be different.

Also, LObin, quick question, do you ever do milk drinks with your MP? On the DF facebook group, someone is saying he doesn't find it ideal. Just curious to hear your thoughts

LObin wrote:Hey Andrew, I'll jump on this since I believe that's one area where James Hoffman was too harsh in his DF64 review.

To be honest, I have the Mythos one declumper and the 3D part ready to be installed...

I know JH, in his review, found the declumper to be a flaw. To a certain extent l, he was right. They could've opted for a different design. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it at some point.

But... to be fair, for most DF64 owners, I doubt it will be as problematic as he made it seem.

With the stock burrs, you will choke your machine before choking the DF64 because of a too fine grind. Unless maybe one works with very small doses like on a Ponte Vecchio, or MAYBE some SUPER long blooming shot on a DE1 or other flow profiling machines... but those are big maybes. At least, it's not my experience with my Londinium.

However, there are known issues with the declumper associated with SSP burrs. A declumper modification seems to be a necessity in a lot of cases.

Retention? Meh... it's already quite low as it is. 0.1-0.2g of exchanged grounds won't affect a shot.

Static? It depends on many variables but this issue has been associated with single dosing grinders for a long time. Even more so with flats. He's posted videos about RDT in the past so I feel like he could've made a better job explaining it vs simply pointing out that it's not an issue with the Niche Zero. I RDT and will continue doing so with SSP MPs and Mythos One clump crusher.

Again, I don't disagree with your statement since the DF64 is not a flawless grinder. But unlike JH, I'm convinced the stock declumper will work for the vast majority.

Cheers!

I've noticed some sort of seal happening when you pump the bellows and nothing seems to be going on. I've put in 18 grames and 17 came out so I know there's more in there and I end up being more aggressive then all of a sudden there is a release and there's the missing coffee. there's even an audible sound of like a slight sucking sound when its seals. I haven't pulled it all apart but I know there is a silicon declumper which probably isn't the best thing to put in there. I suspect when the bellow returns to its upward position it may suck the silicon to a weird state that's more counter-productive and makes that sucking noise until you can push it back with the bellows. I have had to stick something in there to get it back to a functioning bellows state (of course with the grinder off).

I agree that JH was harsh on the grinder but it was clear he just didn't like it but not because it didn't work... he just didn't like it. He couldn't say the grind quality was worse than the NZ and if you can sort through all his picking apart it really comes out not bad. If I recall he was quite critical of the NZ on his initial review too but he was also quite taken by it at the same time. With the DF64 he just isn't pulled into it and for a guy like JH he's at a point where the details matter. After using the machine for a bit I agree with pretty much everything he said, they just aren't as big as deal to me as they appear to be for him and I'm happy with modding it to correct those issues. I like the bellows where JH seemed unamused by it. the regrinding issue with the slight retention I think can be resolved with a different declumber, the popcorning it has also a easy fix and there are other mods to position the PF forks closer to the spout. I happen to like that sort of "hacking/modding" culture the DF64 brings and 3D printing really makes this simpler. the NZ seems more like a iPhone where the DF64 an android if that comparison makes any sense.

I'm in a position where I recommend equipment to small cafes that have very tight budgets (some only $1000 for the cafe) and in developing economies and I think this grinder fits this market. I going to be starting one of these cafes as sort of a model to show how a cafe can be run on these sorts of budgets but a focus on quality and this grinder is on my shortlist right now, but the NZ is too expensive. The cheapest I can get the NZ here is just over USD 1000-1300 (and it's difficult to get), this grinder is about USD 350 (and available).

naturalganja wrote:Right now I must say I'm not having the best results with the high flow basket that comes with the Flair 58. As the grind size required is finer than most 58mm (LObin for example you would need to go much, much finer than your Londinium with it), I'm having a lot more clumps than I used to. Hopefully when I install the Mythos crusher things will be different.

Also, LObin, quick question, do you ever do milk drinks with your MP? On the DF facebook group, someone is saying he doesn't find it ideal. Just curious to hear your thoughts

You RDT correct? Pretty certain you've mentioned it before but I don't remember. Anyways, seems you're in the category of people who needs a different clumb crusher solution... The Mythos one seems ideal indeed.

I'm still waiting for my SSP Multipurpose to arrive...
Last update was on June 11th so needless to say I'm getting a bit worried...

If the MPs don't pair well with the medium roasts we normally get for milk drinks, it might be a deal breaker for me. I opted for the MPs over the HUs because I was mainly looking for that unimodal taste with light roasts that I drink espresso and pour over. We do however make milk drinks in the morning and for guests and family so again, hope they work for this purpose! If not, I'll stick with the stock TiN burrs or may try the HUs although it's not clear they bring that much difference in the cup vs the Italmill's.

How do you like the Flair58 so far? It's such a great design! For those who don't like the look of the G-iota, I bet you it looks at it's best next to a Flair58 on a countertop!

Cheers!

DamianWarS wrote:I've noticed some sort of seal happening when you pump the bellows and nothing seems to be going on. I've put in 18 grames and 17 came out so I know there's more in there and I end up being more aggressive then all of a sudden there is a release and there's the missing coffee. there's even an audible sound of like a slight sucking sound when its seals. I haven't pulled it all apart but I know there is a silicon declumper which probably isn't the best thing to put in there. I suspect when the bellow returns to its upward position it may suck the silicon to a weird state that's more counter-productive and makes that sucking noise until you can push it back with the bellows. I have had to stick something in there to get it back to a functioning bellows state (of course with the grinder off).

I agree that JH was harsh on the grinder but it was clear he just didn't like it but not because it didn't work... he just didn't like it. He couldn't say the grind quality was worse than the NZ and if you can sort through all his picking apart it really comes out not bad. If I recall he was quite critical of the NZ on his initial review too but he was also quite taken by it at the same time. With the DF64 he just isn't pulled into it and for a guy like JH he's at a point where the details matter. After using the machine for a bit I agree with pretty much everything he said, they just aren't as big as deal to me as they appear to be for him and I'm happy with modding it to correct those issues. I like the bellows where JH seemed unamused by it. the regrinding issue with the slight retention I think can be resolved with a different declumber, the popcorning it has also a easy fix and there are other mods to position the PF forks closer to the spout. I happen to like that sort of "hacking/modding" culture the DF64 brings and 3D printing really makes this simpler. the NZ seems more like a iPhone where the DF64 an android if that comparison makes any sense.

I'm in a position where I recommend equipment to small cafes that have very tight budgets (some only $1000 for the cafe) and in developing economies and I think this grinder fits this market. I going to be starting one of these cafes as sort of a model to show how a cafe can be run on these sorts of budgets but a focus on quality and this grinder is on my shortlist right now, but the NZ is too expensive. The cheapest I can get the NZ here is just over USD 1000-1300 (and it's difficult to get), this grinder is about USD 350 (and available).

Totally agree. The silicone clump crusher demands a few "agressive" pump of the bellows.

It's funny because my cousin, who's seen the JH review and also happened to have printed the 3D parts for my G-iota, asked me why I changed my NZ for a worse grinder?
Even though I tried to explain to him that even though, the user experience might be better with the NZ, the DF64 results outperform the NZ's. That was my impression and it also seemed to be Hoffman's impression (even though he will keep his trusty NZ over the DF64). He did say the purist that are looking primarily for "in-the-cup results" will likely perfer it over the Niche.

He watched JH's review over and over but still could not agree with me... Goes to show how much of an influence JH has over the community...

The G-iota could indeed be a great option for those small cafes. Especially if you can get it fro a fraction of the price of a NZ or a Eureka XL.

It might require some drilling in the back of the casing in order to cool down that motor in case they have a small rush. Or maybe not.

LObin wrote:You RDT correct?

I'm still waiting for my SSP Multipurpose to arrive...
Last update was on June 11th so needless to say I'm getting a bit worried...

If the MPs don't pair well with the medium roasts we normally get for milk drinks, it might be a deal breaker for me. I opted for the MPs over the HUs because I was mainly looking for that unimodal taste with light roasts that I drink espresso and pour over. We do however make milk drinks in the morning and for guests and family so again, hope they work for this purpose! If not, I'll stick with the stock TiN burrs or may try the HUs although it's not clear they bring that much difference in the cup vs the Italmill's.

How do you like the Flair58 so far? It's such a great design! For those who don't like the look of the G-iota, I bet you it looks at it's best next to a Flair58 on a countertop!

Cheers!

I do not RDT so far with the DF. I just haven't felt the need for it, until now at least! Dose consistency is around 0.1g and very consistent in that aspect, and I have absolutely zero static. I never hold my cup and yet there is almost nothing going out of it. But I might give it a go and see the difference just for kicks.

Basically what the person was saying was that indeed, the unimodal style of extraction highlights the fruits and acidity which are amazing for pour overs and espressos but can become a bit weird for milk drinks. And also the fact that he struggles getting that intensity/strength of coffee one might appreciate in milk drinks. I hear that, and beside the obvious fact that we need 2 grinders, one more bimodal and one more unimodal, I'm left in a slightly puzzled mind state where I cannot decide which way I want to go for! If only I could try it and decide for myself without commiting for ~$300 CAD to find out haha. I'm also not 100% sure how the HU would perform against the stock but I imagine they have less fines and a more peaked distribution, or at least I would hope so!

And I love the 58, it looks amazing, is built like a tank, and is a complete new experience as opposed to the other Flair models or any other manual lever out there really. It is however a steep learning curve and I believe their choice of selling it with a high flow basket is (one of) the main reason. People starting their espresso journey with the 58 or moving from slower flow basket will find it very challenging at first. One has to realize and accept that because your bottom pf doesn't look the same during extraction as what we might see on youtube and insta all day, doesn't mean there is anything wrong and we should rely solely on taste which, as always, is king! I am ordering, at the same time as the Mythos clump crusher, a smaller (15g vs 18-20 g for the stock Flair), lesser-holes IMS baskets (661 vs 715 for the stock Flair) to accommodate my 16g dose and try to restrict the flow a bit more to see what happens!

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on the MP when you receive it (I don't know how but I totally forgot you didn't already have them!). I talked to Justin at Cafune and he still doesn't know when he will receive them, at least I still have time to decide!