G-IOTA / DF64 espresso grinder - Page 115

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
cmin

#1141: Post by cmin »

Brewzologist wrote:Wow. Crazy! Yes, to be transparent I occasionally make slight adjustments of about 1/2 a mark on the DF64 from day-to-day for the same coffee/shot which might cause at most a 1 second difference in shot length. But nothing like what you are describing. And FWIW, this type of tweaking is also what I've experienced with the Niche and other grinders too, which I attribute to coffee age, puck prep, etc.
Yeah even on Vario maybe just a click back or forth on micro. But the DF seems to fluctuate from borderline choking or gushing when weather changes, others sure a tiny difference and adjust for but nothing like that lol. Seen a lot of post on the DF online group/FB with consistency etc, who knows, maybe we got grinders that had fubar tolerances? Seems if you get a grinder like that though your sol, nothing can be done. I've got it aligned damn near flawlessly, but it's still, wonky, lol. But this is stock burrs. Talked to someone else with a Monolith Flat, Baratz Vario, and Niche that has a DF64 and has the same exact issues I do.

I'm considering a De1 though, still want to do Slayer next year at new house, I've used both and looooove my buddies Slayer. But moved temporarily and like how compact the De1 is, I'm using a Slayer'd BDB right now and not really a fan.

Which DE do you have? The one thing that sucks for me is the steaming, I know the new 220v model is way stronger but I'm renting temporarily and don't think I can wire in a 220v haha. So many just have to put up with the slower steaming which isn't that big a of a deal I guess as even with prior DBs never really pulled and steamed same time.

LObin

#1142: Post by LObin »

Feca wrote:I'd be interested too. I've read all gazillion pages of the product threads (for both) and I can't remember any done systematically (I may be wrong!), most experiences seem to be of the kind '... so obvious it doesn't need blind test' or 'I didn't blind taste, BUT...'.
I had my Niche and DF64 next to each other for less than a week total. The Niche is now at our family cottage with a Europiccola, which is quite a good fit imo.

Doing a blind test is obviously the best way to know how different or similar two grinders are. It's something many reviewers will do but for myself or just to share my experience in a topic on HB... I'll let someone else do it.

There's always James Hoffman who's done some very thorough reviews of both grinders although he's comparing the DF64 without any mods, which doesn't seem to be the norm with this grinder. It's always possible to refer to his Lagom P64 taste ratings for the SSP HU flavor profile.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when comparing burr sets that are at the opposite side of the spectrum (i.e 63mm conical / SSP multipurpose) one would have to do the test with various roasts and shot ratios and styles. The Niche may be very easy to tell apart on a omni roast turbo shot but much harder if it's a medium roast ristretto. Michael Fabian talks about this in his 2020 grinder showdown.
LMWDP #592

LObin

#1143: Post by LObin »

cmin wrote:Yeah even on Vario maybe just a click back or forth on micro. But the DF seems to fluctuate from borderline choking or gushing when weather changes, others sure a tiny difference and adjust for but nothing like that lol. Seen a lot of post on the DF online group/FB with consistency etc, who knows, maybe we got grinders that had fubar tolerances? Seems if you get a grinder like that though your sol, nothing can be done. I've got it aligned damn near flawlessly, but it's still, wonky, lol. But this is stock burrs. Talked to someone else with a Monolith Flat, Baratz Vario, and Niche that has a DF64 and has the same exact issues I do.

I'm considering a De1 though, still want to do Slayer next year at new house, I've used both and looooove my buddies Slayer. But moved temporarily and like how compact the De1 is, I'm using a Slayer'd BDB right now and not really a fan.

Which DE do you have? The one thing that sucks for me is the steaming, I know the new 220v model is way stronger but I'm renting temporarily and don't think I can wire in a 220v haha. So many just have to put up with the slower steaming which isn't that big a of a deal I guess as even with prior DBs never really pulled and steamed same time.
There has to be something wrong with your unit. It's possible you have some play in the lower or upper burr carrier that is only affecting the burr distance and alignment when grinding coffee. Have you played with the bolts underneath the grinder? Are they both finger tight?

My DF64 grind settings barely changes (once all the gaps are filled with coffee, < 5 shots). I can nail the 1st shot on a coffee that I've had before just by using the same settings. I'm in Montreal, Canada so we have 4 very distinct seasons. It's very close the my NZ in terms of consistency. Something seems off...

If I'm not mistaken, the only things that can be responsible for your DF64 inconsistencies are:
1. Dose consistency (variations in grind output)
2. Grind size/distribution consistency
3. Anything prep, tamp and machine related (which are ruled out because you don't have that issue with your other grinders).

If you weigh your grind outputs, you can rule dose consistency out pretty easily.
LMWDP #592

Kran

#1144: Post by Kran »

I'm using, essentially, a stock DF64 (stock burrs, stock declumper, no alignment done, no bellow use, slight bean loading mod) and have no consistency issues. Minor tweak towards the end of a bag of beans, but that's no different than any other grinder i've used.

I weigh the beans going in but not what comes out and I'm still +/- a couple seconds from shot to shot.

cmin

#1145: Post by cmin »

LObin wrote:There has to be something wrong with your unit. It's possible you have some play in the lower or upper burr carrier that is only affecting the burr distance and alignment when grinding coffee. Have you played with the bolts underneath the grinder? Are they both finger tight?

My DF64 grind settings barely changes (once all the gaps are filled with coffee, < 5 shots). I can nail the 1st shot on a coffee that I've had before just by using the same settings. I'm in Montreal, Canada so we have 4 very distinct seasons. It's very close the my NZ in terms of consistency. Something seems off...

If I'm not mistaken, the only things that can be responsible for your DF64 inconsistencies are:
1. Dose consistency (variations in grind output)
2. Grind size/distribution consistency
3. Anything prep, tamp and machine related (which are ruled out because you don't have that issue with your other grinders).

If you weigh your grind outputs, you can rule dose consistency out pretty easily.
Yeah I've taken the grinder apart anyway and opened it up, I aligned it 3x just to see and it's spot on perfect for alignment. I always weigh grinds, been single dosing for like 10 years. On a Slayer it wasn't as good as Vario or Monolith either and same for Flair, my BDB is Slayer modded as well but I'm having other issues with that machine so.... Our vey. But like I mentioned talked to someone else that has a Niche, Monolith Flat and Vario and he said he had similar issues with his two DF64s stock and ssp burrs. Just randomly pulled one of the Varios out in one box as everything else is still packed. Side by side DF64 and only adjusted micro back once on these beans and shot was much better than the Df64 on 2nd try on the BDB which like before that machine is having issues pretty much have it open as it will not profile anymore, pretty sure needle valve is busted and it's out of stock everywhere even out the country except like 1 place. The DF seems to vary leaning towards too tight or too coarse looking at flow even on successive shits with grind and dose not changing, and channeling and sprays. Seen others mention similar on DF group online.

I think it's just sh**ty build tolerance, maybe some get lucky with good one and others like me didn't lol. Someone said they kinda fixed by machining down and sanding and shaving areas, screw that, don't have patience or want to do that on a $500 grinder, chuck in trash before that lol.

Jonk

#1146: Post by Jonk »

BKH wrote:Can anyone point me to some blind taste test comparisons?
Feca wrote:I'd be interested too. I've read all gazillion pages of the product threads (for both) and I can't remember any done systematically (I may be wrong!), most experiences seem to be of the kind '... so obvious it doesn't need blind test' or 'I didn't blind taste, BUT...'.
Do you realize how difficult it is to do meaningful blind taste tests? Yes, most of us only share anecdotes and impressions because it's what we can offer.
LObin wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is that when comparing burr sets that are at the opposite side of the spectrum (i.e 63mm conical / SSP multipurpose) one would have to do the test with various roasts and shot ratios and styles. The Niche may be very easy to tell apart on a omni roast turbo shot but much harder if it's a medium roast ristretto. Michael Fabian talks about this in his 2020 grinder showdown.
This is one of the reasons. There are so many variables and choices to make for a systematic test and some will damn you if for example TDS/EY and/or ratio/time is not kept the same (which might not be possible..) while I think the more subjective "barista determined tasty point" is more interesting.

The few blind comparisons out there are often too limited in scope to be meaningful and might not even disclose details on how they were performed. I think experience over time and with different beans/roasts/parameters is more useful to be honest.

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Brewzologist
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#1147: Post by Brewzologist »

cmin wrote: I think it's just sh**ty build tolerance, maybe some get lucky with good one and others like me didn't lol. Someone said they kinda fixed by machining down and sanding and shaving areas, screw that, don't have patience or want to do that on a $500 grinder, chuck in trash before that lol.
Chris; Where did you get your DF64 from? If I recall somewhere buried in this thread another person faced challenges with inconsistent manufacturing and was able to get a new DF64 shipped to them. I think they got theirs from https://www.espressooutlet.net/

Just by way of illustrating that some of us got good builds, here's a profile graph comparing 2 shots. I've been drinking this all week at the same grind setting and the consistency has been quite precise* over days now: Steve's DF64+MP shots Good luck in resolving this.

*Yeah, I know those squiggly lines from a DE1 may not mean much, but it shows the various DE1 sensors and data from my Lunar scale as almost a perfect match.

cmin

#1148: Post by cmin » replying to Brewzologist »

Mii coffee. But as far as I know I think the warranty etc is voided second you open the grinders up and mod, align, or remove declumper etc? Could be wrong there. Think I bought it in August? That was one of the first things I did as even the single flap declumper was awful, retention, would shoot out extra clumps of grounds even after using bellow or more fines/dust production. Especially going coarser for pour over, so much dust lol. I cut it out and left the outter part to still seal (ironically that's kinda like the Vario flap mod where you flip it in chute to stick out but still seal).

I did have some SSPs left from SJ years ago but I don't think those fit the DFs, I think the old Mazzer SSPs are slightly different and were specifically for thr SJ if I recall what people said? So I never bothered trying to fit those. Maybe it's tolerance or maybe it's the stock burr that's off? B/c it's aligned like damn near perfect. It was completely wack before alignment lol.

Jonk

#1149: Post by Jonk »

cmin wrote:I think the old Mazzer SSPs are slightly different and were specifically for thr SJ if I recall what people said?
Measure the ID - if it's 38mm I guess it should fit. I think there was some confusion with an Anfim OD 64mm ID 37mm SSP earlier in the thread (those even rotate in the other direction) - and then the geniune Mazzer OD 64mm ID 37mm burr that won't fit either. Unless of course you modify the lower burr carrier like Giampiero.

BKH

#1150: Post by BKH »

Jonk wrote:Do you realize how difficult it is to do meaningful blind taste tests? Yes, most of us only share anecdotes and impressions because it's what we can offer.
I get that rigorous blind tasting is near impossible for espresso. However, meaningful blind tasting can be a part of someone's descriptive experience. It keeps us honest because the taste differences we use hyperbole for are actually quite subtle.

It sounds like some of the modifications for the DF64 may help with workflow and cleanliness but I just don't know if they would affect the taste enough to undertake them. There sure is a lot of discussion in this thread for best mods. Does my coffee taste bad because of regrinding, or popcorning, or clumping, or any other reason that the mods attempt to address?

I am another DF64 owner that currently uses it in stock configuration for espresso and find the retention with bellows minimal, static acceptable, grinding changes repeatable, and the espresso I make quite good. Maybe I got lucky for $400.