EK43 alignment and SSP burrs review - New Update with Titus Burr Carrier - Page 6

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
bakafish

#51: Post by bakafish » Jul 15, 2019, 9:51 am

RobindG wrote:When you buy an EK43 from Titus, he takes care of these problems before it leaves his shop. Frank transforms it from a bulk grinder into a boutique grinder. ...As long as you pay for his parts and work. In Europe this is a cheaper (and of course a lot easier) option than buying a Kafatek. Also cheaper than a EG-1.
Yes, I had ever thought about it, but the total cost including the shipping and tax "for an EK43" is too high. I'd like to wait for the Nautilus.

bakafish

#52: Post by bakafish » Jul 15, 2019, 9:52 am

Vashal wrote:I grind at 0 although the burrs are not touching by a bit .I get a powder-like grind which (as usual for the ek43) starts dripping with some difficulty after 10'' ,giving a flow of less than 1ml/sec but few seconds later it gets to more than 2-2.5 ml/sec
Sounds like my Mahlkonig Guatemala does.

RobindG

#53: Post by RobindG » Jul 15, 2019, 10:57 am

bakafish wrote:Yes, I had ever thought about it, but the total cost including the shipping and tax "for an EK43" is too high. I'd like to wait for the Nautilus.
It does feel strange, that a brand new product has to be completely rebuild to make it perform the way we expect it to do.

User avatar
Denis

#54: Post by Denis » Jul 15, 2019, 11:10 am

If you find ek43 + shipping+tax to high then prepare for a much higher price for Nautilus since it's a total new custom made product from scratch, with a more powerful motor, and the possibility to choose different type of burrs and finish on the outside.

Its like ordering a commercial car versus a custom made car.

Since you have the Guatemala, buy low fines SSP burrs for it and pay someone to sand it and align it to zero. I did mine and its equal or better to ek43 because of the high rpm. I get 25-26 % Ey in espresso and with a specific roaster even higher, no bloom or filters.

Rytopa

#55: Post by Rytopa » Jul 15, 2019, 11:40 am

I think there is alot of confusion about EK43S espresso grind settings due to us not defining the espresso parameters. Here is my take on the current confusion.

I currently have an EK43S, SSP red speed burr, high uniformity, Titus latest burr carrier, and sanded chamber to 0.01 mm tolerence.

My espresso or EKpresso taste best around 3-4 on the EK43S dial using light-to medium light coffee, around 20s, 18g in 18g strada basket, out 50-55ml. DE1 flow rate is set to 7ml/s. Pressure at this grind setting builds up minimally at around 2-3 bar max, before dropping to 0 bar. Most of my typical shots, Ext taste best around 22-24%, depending on the roast level, roasting skill, beans. Good quality filter roast with minimal roasting defects (smooth declining ROR), well developed thru out (inner + outer), i am able to "push" for more extreme extractions with out over extractions notes via dialing slightly finer, however total shot time still remains easily below 30 secs, starting with a few drops and quickly increasing in flow rate.

The ek43 is not your typical grinder, meaning its does not conform well to the 1:2 30 secs shot time norm and trying to pull shots by grinding finer while maintaining the typical brew parameters 1:2, 30 secs (short preinfusion, direct ramp up to pressure, mantaining pressure) typically leads to extremely over extracted notes of extreme sourness and bitterness at the same time.
For me personally this dial zone is around 2-3, which i personally term the "dead man's zone" for the Ek43, at this zone, nothing taste good, while shot timing and naked portafilter extraction looks good, everything taste extremely over extracted, the puck in this zone still behaves like the typical fast increasing flow rate, but with a higher peak pressure. I am usually getting 25% extraction at this zone.

Going deeper in to the dial zone, 1 - 2 on the EK43S, the puck starts to behave abnormally, at the zone, the grinds are so so fine that they clump together and resist water under pressure leading to massive micro channeling and under extraction can occur. The grinds and puck at this level acquire super hydration properties, meaning its able to hold and absorb water much more, but with a caveat that which it needs extended time to absorb the water and its does not like to rushed, meaning using methods like blooming, slayer style preinfusion, 1 bar preinfusion maintaining for 30 secs, etc etc, shot times are typically are around the 1 min mark, the barista here is rewarded with this strange looking reddish thin crema and espresso which is extremely high TDS and extraction cup. Not many roast can survive such high level of extraction and still taste good. I typically avoid preparing such espresso because dialing in can be a real pain, wasting tons of good coffee, requiring puck dissection, naked portafilter observations, graphs and everything in between.

From the 0-1 dial zone, i have not had the chance to reach this point yet with any of my coffee i experienced so far, i am guessing its like the black hole for me :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

bakafish

#56: Post by bakafish » Jul 15, 2019, 11:45 am

Denis wrote:If you find ek43 + shipping+tax to high then prepare for a much higher price for Nautilus since it's a total new custom made product from scratch, with a more powerful motor, and the possibility to choose different type of burrs and finish on the outside.

Its like ordering a commercial car versus a custom made car.

Since you have the Guatemala, buy low fines SSP burrs for it and pay someone to sand it and align it to zero. I did mine and its equal or better to ek43 because of the high rpm. I get 25-26 % Ey in espresso and with a specific roaster even higher, no bloom or filters.
For a foreigner outside European, I don't think EK43 worth paying so much (two taxes, two shipping).
Coffee grinder is not high tech, but needs precision. EK43 is far from it.
My Guatemala can easily get 25-26% EY in espresso.

RobindG

#57: Post by RobindG » Jul 15, 2019, 1:02 pm

Rytopa wrote:The ek43 is not your typical grinder,
So comparing it with a Kafatek MAX, although they have the same burr size, is not correct....?

Also with SSP burrs it only grinds for EKspresso (and filter)?

Mrboots2u

#58: Post by Mrboots2u » Jul 15, 2019, 2:49 pm

Rytopa wrote:I think there is alot of confusion about EK43S espresso grind settings due to us not defining the espresso parameters. Here is my take on the current confusion.

I currently have an EK43S, SSP red speed burr, high uniformity, Titus latest burr carrier, and sanded chamber to 0.01 mm tolerence.

My espresso or EKpresso taste best around 3-4 on the EK43S dial using light-to medium light coffee, around 20s, 18g in 18g strada basket, out 50-55ml. DE1 flow rate is set to 7ml/s. Pressure at this grind setting builds up minimally at around 2-3 bar max, before dropping to 0 bar. Most of my typical shots, Ext taste best around 22-24%, depending on the roast level, roasting skill, beans. Good quality filter roast with minimal roasting defects (smooth declining ROR), well developed thru out (inner + outer), i am able to "push" for more extreme extractions with out over extractions notes via dialing slightly finer, however total shot time still remains easily below 30 secs, starting with a few drops and quickly increasing in flow rate.

The ek43 is not your typical grinder, meaning its does not conform well to the 1:2 30 secs shot time norm and trying to pull shots by grinding finer while maintaining the typical brew parameters 1:2, 30 secs (short preinfusion, direct ramp up to pressure, mantaining pressure) typically leads to extremely over extracted notes of extreme sourness and bitterness at the same time.
For me personally this dial zone is around 2-3, which i personally term the "dead man's zone" for the Ek43, at this zone, nothing taste good, while shot timing and naked portafilter extraction looks good, everything taste extremely over extracted, the puck in this zone still behaves like the typical fast increasing flow rate, but with a higher peak pressure. I am usually getting 25% extraction at this zone.

Going deeper in to the dial zone, 1 - 2 on the EK43S, the puck starts to behave abnormally, at the zone, the grinds are so so fine that they clump together and resist water under pressure leading to massive micro channeling and under extraction can occur. The grinds and puck at this level acquire super hydration properties, meaning its able to hold and absorb water much more, but with a caveat that which it needs extended time to absorb the water and its does not like to rushed, meaning using methods like blooming, slayer style preinfusion, 1 bar preinfusion maintaining for 30 secs, etc etc, shot times are typically are around the 1 min mark, the barista here is rewarded with this strange looking reddish thin crema and espresso which is extremely high TDS and extraction cup. Not many roast can survive such high level of extraction and still taste good. I typically avoid preparing such espresso because dialing in can be a real pain, wasting tons of good coffee, requiring puck dissection, naked portafilter observations, graphs and everything in between.

From the 0-1 dial zone, i have not had the chance to reach this point yet with any of my coffee i experienced so far, i am guessing its like the black hole for me :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Couple of questions, what are super hydration properties and how did you arrive at this statement and what is Puck dissection and why would you do it.

Rytopa

#59: Post by Rytopa » Jul 15, 2019, 9:55 pm

RobindG wrote:So comparing it with a Kafatek MAX, although they have the same burr size, is not correct....?

Also with SSP burrs it only grinds for EKspresso (and filter)?
Sorry when i meant typical grinder, i am talking about strictly espresso grinders (conicals, super jolly etc) these usually follow a predictable flow rate/time correlating with grind settings. Observation of the time (30s -/+, 1:2) and flow usually leads to predicable extraction yields and taste. However the EK its hard to use these factors as a correlation. I recently did a grind setting 4.0 20 sec 1:3 ratio which tasted under extracted, tightening the grind to 3.5 time leads to the same 20 sec 1:3 but tasted much better.

I had not have the fortune to play with the Kafatek Max, but given the burr size + SSP design burrs, i am guess it would behave very much like the SSP EK43S, able to pull high extraction EKpresso but with enough resolution on the dial for going finer.

Rytopa

#60: Post by Rytopa » Jul 15, 2019, 10:12 pm

Mrboots2u wrote:Couple of questions, what are super hydration properties and how did you arrive at this statement and what is Puck dissection and why would you do it.
I am very much into sourdough baking, playing around with the mockmill and high hydration bread methods. So part of my obsession is sticking my fingers into spent coffee pucks because they look very much like dough. :shock: :shock:

What i have observed is extremely fine well hydrated pucks behave much like high hydration dough, they have a spongy doughy characteristics to them and to a certain extend "shape able". However getting these pucks to hydrate well is very tricky, due to the unimodal characteristic of the grinds, they tend to "give way" easily to pressure forming leaks and channeling. So maybe a filter paper on the top of the puck, combined with bloom method (filling the head space with water and allowing the water to slowly seep thru the puck with minimal agitation) would be best.

Leaving these pucks overnight to dry out, they tend to retain the water + texture better as compared to a normal puck which will be brittle and break apart easily as they dry up.