Counter-clockwise hand grinder or burr? - Page 3

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
boren

#21: Post by boren »

A manual grinder called OmniCup (sold here on aliexpress) works counter-clockwise. No idea how good it is, but their marketing blurb mentions C40 and EK43, so they obviously believe in their product.

Pressino

#22: Post by Pressino » replying to boren »

Interesting. They say they use Italian burrs that are CCW rather than the usual CW cutting burrs. Maybe the same as used in the new Etzinger? Not sure why they describe this CCW "grinding efficiency is higher." Maybe so for left-handed folks. :?

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ira
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#23: Post by ira »

Etzinger burrs are to the best of my knowledge not made in Italy. I would guess the Etzinger hand grinder uses the burrs from the Sette or the EZTMax or whatever it's called.

Ira

Jonk

#24: Post by Jonk »

I not sure OmniCup is actually claiming to have Italian made burrs. Could just be a translation quirk.

Out of curiousity I watched this video with automatic translation (hilarious at times, but I think the general message was conveyed):
My first thought (and he seems to think so too) was that maybe OmniCup is CCW just to make it a little bit different even though it's clearly a blatant copy of Comandante C40. Kind of like when copies are sold as "Hogo Boss" or "Hello Boos" but with similar packaging to the original.

FWIW it seems to be quite a good copy with slightly better resolution than Red Clix as standard. Pretty silly that it seems they copied the poor adjustment system and then decided that making it turn CCW was the way to set it apart from Comandante :lol:

baldheadracing
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#25: Post by baldheadracing »

I didn't see any mention of Italian either. They're using 420 steel, which is relatively soft. This lets them use common CNC tools and make any design of burr relatively easily.

Conical burrs from Italmill, Mazzer, Etzinger, etc., typically use tool steel, which is harder than 420 and requires much more expensive tooling to make.

As an aside, one can usually tell if tool steel is being used if coatings like Titanium Nitride are available. Titanium Nitride will just wear off soft steels, a.k.a. the "eggshell effect."

Etzinger is located in Liechtenstein.

Pressino

#26: Post by Pressino »

If you go to the OmniCup site and click on the small window to the left of the big picture, the window that shows a picture of the burrs, they clearly state the steel the burrs are made of, "Italian," and that CCW "grinding efficiency is higher." Doubt it is a translation error and have doubts about what it all really means. :(

One thing I've learned from all this discussion is that there are apparently manufacturers of CCW grinding conical burrs. Except for Etzinger's, which I'm confident are good, I wonder how well designed and made these others are. :?:

baldheadracing
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#27: Post by baldheadracing »

I see "Italian hand punch" - which more-or-less means it'll grind an Italian roast for a V60. ("Hand punch" means a cone brewer like V60/brewing by hand with a cone brewer - so a pourover kettle would be a "hand punch kettle;" a V60 would be a "hand punch filter cup")

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Pressino

#28: Post by Pressino » replying to baldheadracing »

OK, I never heard that term "hand punch" as applied to a brewing method, but I see that's what they must mean. Thanks for the clarification of this expression. I thought "hand punch" meant something like "hand grinder" but your explanation makes much better sense. When I Googled "hand punch coffee" I got lots of hits with pictures of various coffee brewing gadgets, some of which were drip, not all V60, and even some of which were other things, like French press. Maybe it's a general term that covers any method of drip or infusion brewing, especially for single cup dosing. Most of the gadgets seemed to come from the far East. I briefly searched here on HB.com and was unable to come up with any mention of "hand punch," but I suppose it has been discussed here before.

Anyhow, I doubted that the burrs were made in Italy. I still have no idea why they claim CCW "grinding efficiency is higher"...it sounds like advertising hype and I don't believe it. :|

Jonk

#29: Post by Jonk »

I think it's just a translation issue.
baldheadracing wrote:They're using 420 steel, which is relatively soft. This lets them use common CNC tools and make any design of burr relatively easily.

Conical burrs from Italmill, Mazzer, Etzinger, etc., typically use tool steel, which is harder than 420 and requires much more expensive tooling to make.
Thanks for pointing this out. Curious, as they could've just kept the steel secret instead of promoting it in the material (I guess it's still better than some alternatives?). What could this mean for edge retention: 3-6 times faster wear? (the exact alloy used in C40 is not known right?)

baldheadracing
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#30: Post by baldheadracing »

420 is a stainless steel, and there seems to be some consumer preference for stainless steel. 420 can be hardened after machining, but I don't see them touting that.

The 38mm-48mm (nominal) Italian, etc., conical burrs made with tool steel were commonly used in vending machines and commercial super-automatics so long life at relatively high RPM was desirable. (Many of these machines now use ceramic burrs for the same reasons.)

A typical home user of a hand grinder will probably not wear out tool steel burrs in a lifetime of grinding, so they're arguably unnecessary, and have the perceived disadvantage of being able to rust.

My understanding is that the C40 burr is martensitic stainless steel with Nitrogen. The burr is most likely hardened after machining, but I am guessing. https://standartmag.com/blogs/journal/b ... iderations (I don't see the article saying anything about comparison to tool steels.)
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