It sounds to me like you just had a bad experience with a specific flat grinder / burrset. Not all flats are the same, not all are difficult to dial in, and not all grinder make it impossible to easily and precisely tweak your grind settings.

drH wrote:It's a bit off topic but I feel like the best espresso setup would include a conical and flat burr, a lever and standard 9 bar machine. An espresso lab. A guy can dream.

I agree! I'm just missing the Lever!

lukas_peters wrote:Does anyone here have in-depth comparative experience with a conical and a flat burr grinder and how important is a lower RPM really? The Lagom P100 sure looks good....

Lukas, do you know what grinder/burr set they were using at the cafe where you had the amazing shot?

I've been able to compare the two, and to me they definitely produce different results. First, I agree with some others on this thread in regards to alignment and type of burr set. Poor alignment will make for a more difficult espresso experience (dialing in will be harder), and the design of the burrs will change how the coffee tastes.

I was very skeptical about different burr types making coffee taste different, but after multiple comparisons, it is definitely a thing.

I like how one coffee can taste different depending on the grinder and burr set you use. I don't like to drink the same type of drink every time so I am always switching it up. For example, lately, in the mornings I've been liking an Americano, and in the afternoons I will have either an iced latte or a straight double shot of espresso. Sometimes I will go 3-5 days with the same coffee, but using different grinders. Sometimes I want the more Gelatinous (as Michael Fabian puts it) mouthfeel I get from the Versalab, and other times I want the clarity I get from the High U burrs in the Ultra.

When it comes to RPM variation, the only experience I have with this is on the Ultra. If I were to compare say 400 RPM to 1500 RPM....the shot at 400 RPM had a little more clarity and less body than the one at 1500. Maybe this is due to more fines being produced at higher RPMs. Neither shot was better or worse, they were just a little different. It's all about what you prefer though. For Filter/Drip I prefer the lower RPM due to more clarity.

In the end it's all about what type of green coffee, coffee drink, or roast level you enjoy. Maybe since you liked the shots off the Kinu more your preference may be more towards conicals?

another_jim wrote:The flat burrs that can go head to head and may outperform good conical burrs start at 80mm and are specially coated and configured. A plain vanilla 64mm burr grinder, whether it single doses or not, is not even close (with the exception of the DRM double burr set). I don't have experience with SSP 64s to judge how they rank for espresso, although the difference when using them for brewing, versus a standard 64, was very striking. If you do order one of the new 64mm single dosers, get it with SSP burrs -- at least you'll have a fairly good brew grinder.

Jim, curious if you have any comments on the Mahlkonig K30/E65s and the Mythos in 2021? The Mahlkonig K30/E65s seems to be the outlier when it comes to burr size and flat burrs. The 65mm burrs Mahlkonig uses a lot of folks seems to produce very good shots. While a smidge underneath the 80mm, the Mythos with 75mm burrs has been a staple in a lot of shops. With my MonoCon, I'm obviously in the conical and slow category at this moment. I'm pretty damn satisfied with the syrupy/thick body a conical produces with good acidity, but flats seem to get the attention nowadays. Flats are the ones that get the differing burr geometries, coatings, etc. I'd like to possibly return to flat burrs in the future and was wondering what makes a flat burr exceptional?

Thanks Jim. I owned a Ceado E37s with 83mm burrs. Same nitpicks, great shots but finicky and unwieldy as a single doser. My enjoyment and consistency were much improved when I moved to a dedicated single doser. I sometimes long for a K30 or Mythos as I have had fond memories of espressos past, but the trade off for home use I think for me is not worth it. Back to waiting to see how the Eureka Single Doser turns out. I expect it to be on par with the Lagom 64. Time will tell.

another_jim wrote:The flat burrs that can go head to head and may outperform good conical burrs start at 80mm and are specially coated and configured. A plain vanilla 64mm burr grinder, whether it single doses or not, is not even close (with the exception of the DRM double burr set). I don't have experience with SSP 64s to judge how they rank for espresso, although the difference when using them for brewing, versus a standard 64, was very striking. If you do order one of the new 64mm single dosers, get it with SSP burrs -- at least you'll have a fairly good brew grinder.

Now that's a nice opinion. Any facts to go with it?

Yes, 20 years ago they were all the rage. And like I said before, if you like medium-dark coffee they probably still are.