Confused about grinders - Page 2

#11: Post by **erik82** » December 31st, 2022, 2:50 am

I also held out for years but am so glad I bought the EG-1 eventually. My pourover is of a different world with the SSP burrs compared to all other grinders I've owned. And it also does a superb job at espresso with a crazy simple workflow without all the hassles. And yes build quality is so much better then most grinder that it'll last a very long time. I came to the conclusion that I waited way too long to take the plunge as it does make a massive difference.

Just last week I installed the original bimodal burrs (conical profile) on my EG-1 just because I always question myself in terms of bias (I'm a psychologist). I was halfway through my Square Mile order so I knew the 5 different beans all well and had them dialed in perfectly. The pourover just wasn't near as good. Espresso looked way better when looking at it coming out of the naked portafilter but it just lacked complexity. I did have a bit more mouthfeel but in the end it just wasn't an improvement for me on medium roasts so, after a week, I switched back to the SSP burrs.

And keep in mind that titan grinders from years back aren't nearly as good as the ones we have now so that's also no comparison. Big conicals where used because of there ease of use in a cafe environment and not because they had superb tasting espresso. We made huge leaps in those years and start to finally better understand the tech behind a grinder and burr profiles.

#12: Post by **Primacog** » December 31st, 2022, 2:53 am

erik82 wrote:I also held out for years but am so glad I bought the EG-1 eventually. My pourover is of a different world with the SSP burrs compared to all other grinders I've owned. And it also does a superb job at espresso with a crazy simple workflow without all the hassles. And yes build quality is so much better then most grinder that it'll last a very long time. I came to the conclusion that I waited way too long to take the plunge as it does make a massive difference.

Not what my bank account wants to hear!

#13: Post by **ira** » December 31st, 2022, 2:57 am

Watch for used ones. The price of early Monoliths is starting to drop and while they are not so fancy, they still make darn nice grinders and other than the Shuriken burrs the new ones aren't that much better. I have Flat number 31 or so from the very first batch and I sometimes consider upgrading and then I wonder how it could be better than what I have for what my needs are. The answer never seems to be upgrade, though I do occasionally consider upgrading to Shuriken burrs. But then I have to choose which one, and I've no clue so I give up.

#14: Post by **malling** » December 31st, 2022, 4:47 am

Bar wrote:If grinders are supposed to be more important than the actual espresso machine why are the pros in this group even talking about inexpensive izpresso kmax grinders? I am new but cant get my head around this.

You make due with what ever budget you might have, there many who can't afford or justify the price of what is often coined end game grinders. So you need to make certain compromises and hand grinders have for many years striked the best value for the money, these aren't on the level as good electric but these have for many years been far more affordable it wasn't really until recently where we got the Fellow Ode and Wilfa that really gave us the first flat brew grinders not much more expensive then handgrinder as well as the G-Iota/DF64 for espresso, before investing in electric was far more costly affair or you needed to buy either grinder that offered less quality or buy second hand, in that reality hand grinders where a huge improvement for a modest budget. Today if you also intend to travel and can't afford both, the hand grinders still make sense on budget constraints.

With the drastic reduction of prices for SD grinders more burrs to choose from we really hit diminishing returns much sooner on the price latter then we did a few years ago. Your not really seeing massive difference between a €300 Ode or €400 G-Iota and a €1800 p64 especially not using same burrs then difference is ease of use and additional RPM impact really, even the €3000-4000 98mm Grinders offer diminishing returns we are really down at nuances here, you pay a drastic price for the last few percent improvement.

#15: Post by **erik82** » December 31st, 2022, 7:23 am

I do think you're forgetting a major point here and that's longevity. A Fellow Ode will die pretty soon where a Monolith will run for over 20 years. So let's say an Ode with SSP burrs used exclusively for espresso will last 3 years max, you need to buy 20 / 3 = nearly 7 Ode's which will cost you 7 * 300 = 2100 which is almost the same price as a Monolith flat grinder. That's how you compare apples to apples and you don't waste a lot of products so it's even far better for the planet and in the end you'll have a superior grinder for almost the same price

.

I'd rather buy a great grinder once and enjoy it for a very long time then having to fiddle around with subpar grinders needing to do a lot of repairs and buy several new ones needing to break in the burrs again and again.

#16: Post by **PIXIllate** » December 31st, 2022, 8:14 am

For me the returns weren't that diminishing when I went to the Monolith Flat SSW and MC4 coming from a well aligned Vario. I'd say night and day. Both in flavour and shot to shot consistency.

Recently I bought a set of the brew burrs for the old Vario and replaced them and realigned them. I never had much interest in filter coffee (compared to espresso it's quite boring and dilute) but recently I've been making one V60 a day to take to work. I'm breaking in the new burrs before I do some side by side testing for this purpose but so far I think the difference in performance is much smaller when using a filter grind size than espresso grind size.

#17: Post by **malling** » December 31st, 2022, 10:29 am

erik82 wrote:I do think you're forgetting a major point here and that's longevity. A Fellow Ode will die pretty soon where a Monolith will run for over 20 years. So let's say an Ode with SSP burrs used exclusively for espresso will last 3 years max, you need to buy 20 / 3 = nearly 7 Ode's which will cost you 7 * 300 = 2100 which is almost the same price as a Monolith flat grinder. That's how you compare apples to apples and you don't waste a lot of products so it's even far better for the planet and in the end you'll have a superior grinder for almost the same price .

I'd rather buy a great grinder once and enjoy it for a very long time then having to fiddle around with subpar grinders needing to do a lot of repairs and buy several new ones needing to break in the burrs again and again.

We don't know the longevity of Ode it's been out a little over 2 years heck we don't even know P64 that only been out a little more then a year longer- I seen no indications of problems with Ode and I'll anticipate somewhere around 4-6 years average lifespan of these, and your not supposed to use it for espresso so your example isn't a good one. Also it cost 1/6 of a P64 that's 24-36 years that P64 need to last to earn it self home a monolith need to last 40-70 years for us europeans and these been around for around 6 years now, Somehow I doubt either of these last that long and most won't even own it anywhere near that span. I been long enough in this to know that sooner rather then later that those people who can afford such luxury grinders tend to get an itch for upgrading or acquiring new gear, if you really cared about waste you buy second hand or handgrinder. P64 or Monolith etc. are not environmental friendly products either and once the manufacturer retires then what, as you can't get replacement parts and all grinders will eventually need parts replacement, many of these are probably 10 year before these need parts replacement and we both know these will either get sold on or dumped at that point and many of these have twice the materials in them then an Ode, there absolutely no data to even assume these last 20 years it might for some, but I can guarantee now it won't be the case for all far from it.

Also I seen people mention this many times, same people gladly changing computers, smartphones, tv, consoles, appliances, furniture etc. regularly... it can quickly turn into hypocrisy when making such point.

Also many cannot afford those gear its probably a fraction who can. So you point isn't a very valid one try to at least understand that not all have that sort of cash laying around. I know many who buy ode already find that to be a very expensive purchase your never getting them to splash out for such a product.

If you get SSP burrs they last equally long and you only need to season them once, it doesn't matter what grinder you toss them in.

#18: Post by **PIXIllate** » December 31st, 2022, 10:39 am

Discussions of value aren't particularly productive. $100 means something different to all of us. I'm not someone who can trivially afford $4000CAD grinders but I prioritize things in my life. I enjoy espresso as a hobby and those grinders allow me to enjoy it more and be frustrated less.

As someone who does AB comparisons daily for the last 3 decades I can tell you that even if 10 people agree that B is better than A you'll get 10 different reasons why those 10 people chose one over the other. Money is often the overriding deciding factor, not performance. You'd get FAR greater consensus if they were all the same price.

#19: Post by **AssafL** » December 31st, 2022, 10:58 am

I have had my Versalab (old M3, updated with the M4 belts) from about 2009-2010. So 13-14 years.

It was 1800 bucks back then. So 160 or so dollars per year?

The Mazzer before it last 1.5 years and cost 600$. So it was over twice the cost per year vs the Versalab.

Now there is a risk of an upgrade always. If there was anything better than the Versalab. Maybe one day?

#20: Post by **erik82** » December 31st, 2022, 12:02 pm

malling wrote:We don't know the longevity of Ode it's been out a little over 2 years heck we don't even know P64 that only been out a little more then a year longer- I seen no indications of problems with Ode and I'll anticipate somewhere around 4-6 years average lifespan of these, and your not supposed to use it for espresso so your example isn't a good one. Also it cost 1/6 of a P64 that's 24-36 years that P64 need to last to earn it self home a monolith need to last 40-70 years for us europeans and these been around for around 6 years now, Somehow I doubt either of these last that long and most won't even own it anywhere near that span. I been long enough in this to know that sooner rather then later that those people who can afford such luxury grinders tend to get an itch for upgrading or acquiring new gear, if you really cared about waste you buy second hand or handgrinder. P64 or Monolith etc. are not environmental friendly products either and once the manufacturer retires then what, as you can't get replacement parts and all grinders will eventually need parts replacement, many of these are probably 10 year before these need parts replacement and we both know these will either get sold on or dumped at that point and many of these have twice the materials in them then an Ode, there absolutely no data to even assume these last 20 years it might for some, but I can guarantee now it won't be the case for all far from it.

Also I seen people mention this many times, same people gladly changing computers, smartphones, tv, consoles, appliances, furniture etc. regularly... it can quickly turn into hypocrisy when making such point.

Also many cannot afford those gear its probably a fraction who can. So you point isn't a very valid one try to at least understand that not all have that sort of cash laying around. I know many who buy ode already find that to be a very expensive purchase your never getting them to splash out for such a product.

If you get SSP burrs they last equally long and you only need to season them once, it doesn't matter what grinder you toss them in.

I took the example of someone that brought the Ode up and compared it to espresso grinders so I took the Ode as an espresso grinder and then it's crap (because it isn't made for espresso) and won't last long (probably not even a year), just like all of the Baratza grinders. They're a really bad investment as they'll keep draining money from you. Then you're far better of just buying a second hand Super Jolly doser and singledosing it.

And handgrinders aren't available as flat burr grinders so that also isn't a valid point you made. When looking at my setup with an EG1 and Strietman it's very energy efficient and will last a very long time.

I worked my way up selling/buying multiple grinders and saving money over many years to end up with the EG1 as I'm not able to just buy this very expensive gear so your point about that also isn't very good. I won't sell it and keep it for a very long time as it's superb and I don't need more. Yes new stuff at his level is always nice but not affordable for normal humans like me or esle I would have had a KvdW for a long time

. But when looking at it from a performance standpoint they still deliver a far superior job compared to the cheaper grinders.