Better and worse workflow in single-dosing grinders - what does it mean?
-
Ursego
- Posts: 279
- Joined: 6 years ago
I've come across information from various people (on YouTube, FB and HB) that Niche Zero / Niche Duo / Timemore Sculptor have a better workflow and are more enjoyable. Many times it's mentioned that Niche Duo inherits the fantastic workflow of Niche Zero.
I've had a Niche Zero for years. I've never used any other single-dosing grinder, but I've watched a lot of videos about them, and didn't notice any difference in workflow - you put the beans in, turn on the grinder, coffee pours into the dosing cup. How could that process be more or less convenient or even enjoyable?
What exactly do people mean when they talk about workflow quality?
I've had a Niche Zero for years. I've never used any other single-dosing grinder, but I've watched a lot of videos about them, and didn't notice any difference in workflow - you put the beans in, turn on the grinder, coffee pours into the dosing cup. How could that process be more or less convenient or even enjoyable?
What exactly do people mean when they talk about workflow quality?
-
theaaaa
- Posts: 18
- Joined: 1 year ago
As an example we have a Zero and a DF64. This is how the workflow goes:
The Niche we weigh beans, spray water if we feel like it, put in the hopper with nice easy lid, grind and put it straight in the portafilter.
The DF64 goes like this:
The Niche we don't even bother weighing the output any more it's always close enough. The DF64 sometimes loses a gram for fun. It's a miserable experience compared to the Niche and this is modded already. Niche has never blocked. It's a joy to use in comparison!
The Niche we weigh beans, spray water if we feel like it, put in the hopper with nice easy lid, grind and put it straight in the portafilter.
The DF64 goes like this:
- Weigh beans,
- spray lots of water or disaster ensues!,
- tare dosing cup,
- pull off bellows,
- load beans,
- put bellows back or beans popcorn all over kitchen,
- press grind button and wait 30 seconds,
- grinder auto stops but still some beans popcorning around so press button again for 30s more,
- do a third round if the beans are really dense and bouncy,
- notice mess around grinder pump bellows to make more mess,
- weigh dosing cup and work out if its close enough to target weight of grinds that we don't need to add a few more beans,
- finally put dosing cup into portafilter. (Unless the chute blocked and need to fully clean the grinder and start again)
The Niche we don't even bother weighing the output any more it's always close enough. The DF64 sometimes loses a gram for fun. It's a miserable experience compared to the Niche and this is modded already. Niche has never blocked. It's a joy to use in comparison!
-
PIXIllate
- Supporter ♡
- Posts: 1335
- Joined: 5 years ago
The need to RDT, the way the grinder distributes the ground in the basket, how easy it is to insert and remove the portafilter, speed of grinding, noise levels.... I'm probably missing a few things that people complain about.
None of it means very much in the end. You can get use to anything and none of them are really bad in terms of day to day use. The internet is designed to complain about minutia and enable analysis paralysis.
Personally I chose the one that tastes the best in the end and learned to live with anything I don't like about the physical device. After all, it's purpose is to grind coffee to taste its best, not star in product videos.
None of it means very much in the end. You can get use to anything and none of them are really bad in terms of day to day use. The internet is designed to complain about minutia and enable analysis paralysis.
Personally I chose the one that tastes the best in the end and learned to live with anything I don't like about the physical device. After all, it's purpose is to grind coffee to taste its best, not star in product videos.
-
malling
- Posts: 2933
- Joined: 13 years ago
There bound to be some subjective in this, but generally good routine involves as few steps possibly while keeping retention low.
Before SD grinder was a thing we used the average industry grinder not designed for SD, this involved tossing a few beans in to clean (to get the best performance, could be skipped), RDT, toss dose in, put counter weight on top, grind, sweep/brush cute, purge and repeat this 2-3 times perhaps added with the aid of a bellows. If the grinder had a doser then you would whack that into vessel or PF, then pour into pf if not grinding/dosing directly into PF, then follow up with WDT, tamp and pull shot. As you can see originally the routine involved lots of small steps and was a bit of a faff, not really a fantastic routine. Today you simply eliminate the entire sweep, purge & dosing routine because retention is low and usually get out by itself or with a help with a knock.
Today with SD the less steps the better and removing annoyances like bellows make it a better routine. The closer you get to just grind a dose directly into a PF and pull shot without sacrificing shot quality the better the routine.
Before SD grinder was a thing we used the average industry grinder not designed for SD, this involved tossing a few beans in to clean (to get the best performance, could be skipped), RDT, toss dose in, put counter weight on top, grind, sweep/brush cute, purge and repeat this 2-3 times perhaps added with the aid of a bellows. If the grinder had a doser then you would whack that into vessel or PF, then pour into pf if not grinding/dosing directly into PF, then follow up with WDT, tamp and pull shot. As you can see originally the routine involved lots of small steps and was a bit of a faff, not really a fantastic routine. Today you simply eliminate the entire sweep, purge & dosing routine because retention is low and usually get out by itself or with a help with a knock.
Today with SD the less steps the better and removing annoyances like bellows make it a better routine. The closer you get to just grind a dose directly into a PF and pull shot without sacrificing shot quality the better the routine.
-
Jeff
- Team HB
- Posts: 6906
- Joined: 19 years ago
Needing to get out a vacuum cleaner to clean up is, for me, over the line for "workflow".
Having do do more than one thing at the end of the grinding to get the retention to a reasonable point also is more than I am willing to put up with for long. An example would be "use the blower then use the bellows" or "use the bellows then use the knocker".
Another aspect is how easy is it to make a small and predictable change to a repeatable grind size, in both directions. Many grinders I have worked with have significant backlash. To be repeatable, you have to always approach the desired grind size from the same direction. This means that you might have to back off the grind size a bunch then tighten it back down to almost where you were before to reliably and repeatedly make a small increase in size.
I dose into a bare basket for a variety of reasons. A grinder that has portafilter forks in the way that I can't remove or is shaped in a way that I can't easily hold the basket beneath the snout and manipulate it to fill reasonably easily is, for me, "poor workflow". Others probably have the opposite opinion.
Having do do more than one thing at the end of the grinding to get the retention to a reasonable point also is more than I am willing to put up with for long. An example would be "use the blower then use the bellows" or "use the bellows then use the knocker".
Another aspect is how easy is it to make a small and predictable change to a repeatable grind size, in both directions. Many grinders I have worked with have significant backlash. To be repeatable, you have to always approach the desired grind size from the same direction. This means that you might have to back off the grind size a bunch then tighten it back down to almost where you were before to reliably and repeatedly make a small increase in size.
I dose into a bare basket for a variety of reasons. A grinder that has portafilter forks in the way that I can't remove or is shaped in a way that I can't easily hold the basket beneath the snout and manipulate it to fill reasonably easily is, for me, "poor workflow". Others probably have the opposite opinion.
-
another_jim
- Team HB
- Posts: 13947
- Joined: 19 years ago
I'm with Mikkel having begun single dosing with commercial grinders. The Versalab had a great workflow, but was bugged by a bad bearing design (I'm told newer models are better in this respect - Frank -- Titus Grinders -- got his start fixing them) When I switched to the Niche from the Compak conical, I got the same grind quality with about 1/3 of the work (and about 1/3 of the size). Don't like the DFs much. The Monoliths are all very sweet to use. Haven't tried the Scultpor or Lagom grinders.
For single dose brewing, the horizontal configuration like the Fujis or Sculptors is very convenient
One thing to note. Conical burrs have better suction than flat burrs, so as you grind finer, flat burrs slow down more and more when single dosing. Even on a superb grinder like the Monolith Max, your going to be waiting 15 to to 20 seconds grinding a double, whereas on a Mahlkonig with a full hopper and the same burrs, you'll do it in five.
For single dose brewing, the horizontal configuration like the Fujis or Sculptors is very convenient
One thing to note. Conical burrs have better suction than flat burrs, so as you grind finer, flat burrs slow down more and more when single dosing. Even on a superb grinder like the Monolith Max, your going to be waiting 15 to to 20 seconds grinding a double, whereas on a Mahlkonig with a full hopper and the same burrs, you'll do it in five.
Jim Schulman
-
lukeap69
- Posts: 81
- Joined: 11 years ago
Some very good points above. Simple things that can make the user experience better can contribute to the 'better' workflow IMO. An example is the on/off switch, the one in the NZ is easy and intuitive although I found it ugly. In the overall usage, NZ feels very easy to use.
-
AnotherADDiction
- Posts: 161
- Joined: 1 year ago
I, for one, have been a surprised at how much more a good workflow is important to me after the grinder(s) have reached an acceptable level of their primary purpose, taste.
I am living with a worse workflow for superior taste. This is for my two handgrinders that are used only for pourover. I choose to live with much more mess and slower speed, for the better quality cup, as they are not at the minimum acceptable levels yet.
I can easily see this decision going the other way if the tastes are both at the top tier level (this is currently with two, under $200 hand grinders, so it is upper middle class at best, for taste and function).
A huge factor will also be looks if you are dealing with something that will always be in full view, have to work with a significant other, and additionally take up counter space .
I am living with a worse workflow for superior taste. This is for my two handgrinders that are used only for pourover. I choose to live with much more mess and slower speed, for the better quality cup, as they are not at the minimum acceptable levels yet.
I can easily see this decision going the other way if the tastes are both at the top tier level (this is currently with two, under $200 hand grinders, so it is upper middle class at best, for taste and function).
A huge factor will also be looks if you are dealing with something that will always be in full view, have to work with a significant other, and additionally take up counter space .
-
Primacog
- Posts: 893
- Joined: 2 years ago
I don't experience any of the issues u mentioned with the df64. I weigh the beans and then I lift the cap and pour the beans into the bellows which functions as the opening for the grinder and that I never need to remove from the grinder at any time. Then I turn it on and it grinds tbe beans. At the end I pump the bellows a few times to get it to sneeze out the last bits inside into be cup and I switch it off. I take out the cup and pour into the portafilter etc. And thats it...theaaaa wrote:As an example we have a Zero and a DF64. This is how the workflow goes:
The Niche we weigh beans, spray water if we feel like it, put in the hopper with nice easy lid, grind and put it straight in the portafilter.
The DF64 goes like this:Notice DF64 slowly slides along the counter over time!
- Weigh beans,
- spray lots of water or disaster ensues!,
- tare dosing cup,
- pull off bellows,
- load beans,
- put bellows back or beans popcorn all over kitchen,
- press grind button and wait 30 seconds,
- grinder auto stops but still some beans popcorning around so press button again for 30s more,
- do a third round if the beans are really dense and bouncy,
- notice mess around grinder pump bellows to make more mess,
- weigh dosing cup and work out if its close enough to target weight of grinds that we don't need to add a few more beans,
- finally put dosing cup into portafilter. (Unless the chute blocked and need to fully clean the grinder and start again)
The Niche we don't even bother weighing the output any more it's always close enough. The DF64 sometimes loses a gram for fun. It's a miserable experience compared to the Niche and this is modded already. Niche has never blocked. It's a joy to use in comparison!
The grinder doesn't move on my counter. I don't need to use rdt.
My df64 has am anti pop corning insert inside the bellows.
I find the df64 such a compelling value proposition that I have two of them each fitted with a diff ssp burr set. As workflow is concerned I don't see how the zero is much better, and given the zero has conical grinders, I am pretty sure the df64 with ssp burrs give a much better grind for lighter roast beans.
LMWDP #729
-
lukeap69
- Posts: 81
- Joined: 11 years ago
I appreciate what you are saying. I have three hand grinders and I like using them after work when I have time to have fun. However in the morning, I use one electric grinder for my espresso/latte and another one for pour over which I will bring to work. Workflow is very important in the morning for me. 
