Bentwood Vertical 63 - Page 3

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
malling

#21: Post by malling »

coffeeOnTheBrain wrote:If you are interested in bigger burrs rather then good coffee do not buy a Bentwood ;)

I know someone from kaffee-netz.de who replaced his perfectly alligned EK with the Bentwood and is more then happy with it: https://instagram.com/ek43spresso?igshid=19coksgksr0wy
As his instagram handle suggests he is a big advocate for the EK43, however he stated multiple times that he gets better coffee from the Bentwood.

Also a couple of fellow enthusiasts from Kaffee-netz.de are in the process to group buy a Bentwood. I believe they are more then 5.

That said it surely is a niche product, but I will wait for some reviews before I judge it.

As a sidenote Kafatek grinders are basically inexistent in Europe, but I do not think that this is caused by a lack of quality. I would even go as far as to say there are more Bentwoods in European coffee shops than there are Kafatek and Weber grinders combined :D
Name one of the big burrs grinder I mentioned that deliver less then the Bentwood? I would prefer actually evidence of such statements, except storeys about one guy replacing a grinder. I replaced my EK with the Ode, dos it mean the Ode equals the EK, well no, but there can be other reasons then just cup results why you go such rute.

As you can see I owned an EK, I had several burrs with it, I tested it alongside multiple grinders, cupped and did triangular tests, I know from that, that the idea that a Bentwood can equal on objective parameters is either hearsay or a build on none actually tests or that you simply doesn't like clarity bombs (taste preferences is subjective after all). There are grinders that equal the objective parameters and/or have a different characteristic, but better on those parameters no, that I have not seen actually evidence off.

I believe there is simply a limit for how much you can pull out of the coffee with 63-65mm burrs and what you can do with such burrs. I tried allot of these and they can do quite well (I have a Ode right now and enjoyed a great cup right now) but you do get more flavour, better separation and clarity out from a 80( Ditting 804), 98 or 120mm burrs, I have neither seen nor tested any exception from this. Whether that exstra is worth the additional costs for you or even like it and if the additional countertop space used is desirable will always be an individual thing, for me I decided after a long hard process, that I didn't want a bulky beast in my kitchen anymore.

I didn't say the Bentwood don't deliver great coffee, I'm sure it dos, I just stated it's overpriced for what it is. Heck even the EK is overpriced these days and I would never consider paying such a sum for it.

coffeeOnTheBrain

#22: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain » replying to malling »

This went sideways quickly. Maybe it is the way I read your post, but to me it reads like you are judging a grinder that you have never tested.

I didn't mean to state anything else then that there is at least one guy who believes that the Bentwood makes exceptional coffee. I had my fair share of discussions with Denis and he surely is polarizing, but he surely knows a bit about espresso too.

And that there are actually some guys buying the Bentwood right now and I am looking forward to reading about their impressions.

malling

#23: Post by malling » replying to coffeeOnTheBrain »

I have tasted coffee also side by side, from so many 64mm burrs/grinders that I have lost count on it. Therefore I honestly have a hard time seeing that there can be gained more or brought something new to the table that hasn't already been delivered. When I look at the Bentwood burrs I see nothing I haven't seen before, I'm not saying the burrs are bad or it doesn't deliver exceptional coffee, even the ode with stock burrs can do that, that is really beside the point. The point is that it is allot of money for what it is, I don't see it as value for money. I don't really need to taste it to make such a valuation. $4000 (The price my local reseller charges including 25% VAT) is allot of money for any grinder it need to be built to exceptional high standards and have supreme burrs to be worth the costs, not that many grinders are worth such a high price tag.

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ducats

#24: Post by ducats »

emradguy wrote:This is illogical.

You can't say it's better than the EK43, and then say you can't compare the two...and then justify that by comparing it to your memory of a Sette. Well, you can say whatever you want...but it's misleading and unfounded given your path of reason.
Let me translate the questionable statements and then maybe you'll see it differently. The quote:
Taste-wise I think it is for sure above the Mahlkoenig EK43, unfortunately at home I have no possibilities to make a comparison. I can only recall back to some shots from my previous Baratza Sette and the in-cup quality with the Bentwood grinder is far beyond.
Translation: I think it's better than what I've had from coffee shops that use an EK43, but I don't personally have an EK43 so therefore I can't directly compare it. In a situation where there is some commonality between variables, e.g. where the barista is the same, aka me, I can compare it to the Baratza Sette, and not surprisingly, the BV63 is better.

I don't find any of this misleading. Streezz clearly says "at home" he can't compare with the EK43, and that "from my previous Baratza Sette," he is stating his equipment history. I do not find it misleading, but there was a nested/implied difference in control variables between the statement about the BV63&EK43 and the BV63&Sette, and to see that difference, was as important, if not more important, than reading the sentences for no other reason than to see which grinder names were mentioned. In other words... the first sentence is about upper limit cup quality, and the second is about in-home cup quality limited to only his appliances. The transitive property need not apply.

coffeeOnTheBrain

#25: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain »

malling wrote:I have tasted coffee also side by side, from so many 64mm burrs/grinders that I have lost count on it. Therefore I honestly have a hard time seeing that there can be gained more or brought something new to the table that hasn't already been delivered. When I look at the Bentwood burrs I see nothing I haven't seen before, I'm not saying the burrs are bad or it doesn't deliver exceptional coffee, even the ode with stock burrs can do that, that is really beside the point. The point is that it is allot of money for what it is, I don't see it as value for money. I don't really need to taste it to make such a valuation. $4000 (The price my local reseller charges including 25% VAT) is allot of money for any grinder it need to be built to exceptional high standards and have supreme burrs to be worth the costs, not that many grinders are worth such a high price tag.
I understand that you are not interested in this grinder, but you are still writing about it?
Maybe find another dealer. 4000 seems to be steep given that it can be had for about 2500€ in Europe, which by the way is cheaper than any of the aforementioned grinders.
I find Ferraris particularly overpriced, Lamborghinis are priced much more reasonable :D

I still have not tasted any coffee from the Bentwood, but I find the grinder very interesting for its pregrinding mechanism and some other technical details: https://streamable.com/eo7kum

I believe that this pregrinding could potentially render bigger burrs unnecessary with similar results, as with the Versalab or Titus offerings.

lukehk
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#26: Post by lukehk »

I've had a Bentwood alongside my EK43s for maybe 4-6weeks now. Titus edition. I started with HU burrs but as I got more into filter coffee and then roasting I found the HU were a bit one dimensional. Great for espresso with the DE1 but not up to the filter coffee I get from EK43's in coffee shops. The burrs also have a definate preference for light roast and whilst I mainly drink light roast I do occasionally like an espresso blend and as I now get into home roasting I wanted something more flexible. I bought some LU burrs at Christmas and I definatly preferred then for pour over. Anyway, I got a deal on a Bentwood so promised the wife only one would stay and an currently in the process of testing them. I won't be able to answer all or maybe many of your questions as the testing is slow going but I'll do what I can. If anyone has tips on pour over with burrs of this size that would be great. I've tried numerous recipes and currently on a kalita 185, 20-300g, 4x75g pours every 30 seconds finishing around 2.30. I am grinding around 450 to 500 microns without any bitterness or dryness and comparing it to 8.5 or 9 on my ek43. They are approx comparison with similar total brew times and I'll continue to push going finer. Sometimes I'll try a V60, played around a bit with a Gabi dripper. I've gone through various professionally roasted coffee and some home roasts too. The first coffee I made on the bentwood was outstanding I couldn't believe it. Then I tried it on the EK and it was different but equally outstanding. I've since bought the coffee again and couldn't get a good cup. Other coffees I haven't had good enough results from they were poor from both grinders. I usually use up 2/3rds of the bagon the bentwood trying different things and then a couple on the EK. These are impressions.... not blind tests, no EY measurements but I've found it easier to get cleaner, sharper more punchy flavours from the EK and the Bentwood a more gentle profile. I'm trying to get more flavor out of the Bentwood so any advice would be welcome. I've read others grinding as fine as 350 without bitterness but I think i need to change my approach and maybe even water. When I go this fine it becomes dry. Just starting out with espresso on it really, with coffees the EK didn't do such a good job with such as square mile red brick. Encouraging so far. I suspect it will do well with a wider range of coffees and roasts than the EK and am looking forward to putting some light roasts through the DE1. I am hoping this will be one of its strengths as well. If what some people say it's true I think there could be lots more to unlock but we'll see. At the moment I'm learning and want to compete my pour over tests. It was interesting that when I did a blind cupping I thought I spotted the ek easily as cleaner as the other was a bit rough flavor wise(although more flavor). I was wrong. So I'm enjoying playing with both. Nothing to make me sell my EK yet but then I haven't really got to the bottom of what it can do. It may well not be as good for filter but a better overall for me what with my unpredictable home roasts!

Eiern

#27: Post by Eiern »

I hope you've tried standard or SSP cast for filter in your EK? An EK without cast is almost a different grinder. Machined SSP burrs has a different taste profile with positives and negatives.

malling

#28: Post by malling »

Cast EK burrs pre 2015 or new ssp cast are objectively better at clarity, flavour seperation, sweetness and less tendency to bittering of the brew then any of the machined.

I'm not saying the others are bad, they are all pretty capable, but I found the cast better at those parameters. The HU is by far the worst at filter, at those specific parameters, so much that I find the brewed 64mm better. The HU is indeed rather one dimensional at filter, but to be fair it where design specific to do espresso better.

So yes the EK performance depends on the burrs.

lukehk
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#29: Post by lukehk »

I've not tried the cast as I started out using the EK for espresso and then gradually used it more and more for filter and espresso which is when I swapped to LU. If the Bentwood works out really well for espresso I may trade in the 2 SSP burr sets for the cast and keep both grinders... But then that would rely on my wife forgetting I said I would only end up keeping one grinder...... So batch to my original problem... Is it really possible to have a grinder that can do both and if it's only possible with a compromise which grinder fits my needs best

coffeeOnTheBrain

#30: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain » replying to lukehk »

Ditting Lab Sweet is the standard answer to your question, if money is not a concern. A friend owns a grinder with the 80mm SSP burrs and he is pretty happy too. Let us know if the Bentwood lives up to the marketing.
Frankly from a workflow perspective having 2 grinders is just better.