Intrepid510 wrote: The Forté BG is an excellent grinder for present day light roasts just on the other side of first crack and for most applications it will arguably perform as well as an EK43 or better.

This is based on one user's experience. A user with lots of experience, but nevertheless, one user with one Forté.

Intrepid510 wrote: However, the EK43 is a commercial grinder and with it being properly aligned will most likely outperform the Forté and can be used to grind coffee that is super light roasted not even to the point of first crack. And you probably need a grinder of this caliber to be able grind said coffee.

That qualifier needs to be kept in mind for the Forté, as well.

I'm not saying the Forté isn't great and it may very well be everything you and some others are stating that it is, but maybe bold claims should be withheld until there is a sample size greater than 1.

Not even Socratic can live up to that, they test one grinder at a time, that one grinder could for all we know be a one off!

So although their tests are closer to classic scientific methodology, their findings is still pretty unscientific, but I'll take that any day over some self proclaimed expert, who doesn't take all different aspects into consideration.

And I agree that EK thrives with very dense coffee, especially the kind that has a developed time under 20%, so concluding that the Forte is better/more caple with light roast with something I woudn't define as light for me that says everything, and no 20% isn't really light, it's more like a modern day medium roast.

culturesub wrote:What exactly are his financial interests that would impact this discussion?

He makes $0 if people start buying Fortes. He also doesn't have any financial interest whereby he would make money if people quit buying Ek43s. The answer is 'none.'

The way Rao makes money is EXTREMELY simple to understand and EXTREMELY common for anyone whose career is 'consulting.'

https://www.scottrao.com/consulting-services

This is why he always refuses to make equipment recommendations or to compare 'x' to 'y'.' Consumer opinion is easily swayed by reviews, especially by 'professionals.' The reason he did his post is actually quite simple: He keeps seeing the same problem over and over and over again -- someone spends $2700 on an EK43 because they've heard it was the 'best.' They try and try and try and cannot make great coffee. And the reason they cannot make great coffee is a stock EK43 has manufacturing tolerances so wide that perfect or near-perfect alignment out of the box is a unicorn experience.

I base my comments on the middle of the article:

"While the first EK43 I owned happened to produce impressive results, I've since used about one hundred EK's and I've realized that I was lucky: that first machine happened to have been well aligned. Only about 10% of the Ek43's I've used since then have had such good alignment. Poorly aligned Ek43's are the norm, a problem Mahlkonig has chosen not to resolve, and a problem that has caused their quality-oriented users endless grief and wasted time, as users have had to personally realign the burrs both out of the box and upon each burr change, a frustrating process. There is no excuse for selling such an expensive grinder that usually underperforms right out of the box. Nor should customers have to spend so much precious time bringing the grinder's performance up to a reasonable standard.

Because of the Ek43's alignment issue, I desperately wanted to avoid overpaying for a machine that would give me fits. I'm pleased to report that the Forté extracts higher than any EK43 I have ever used, makes tastier coffee than any EK43 I have ever used, and can grind much finer than most EK43's. "

RyanP wrote:This is based on one user's experience. A user with lots of experience, but nevertheless, one user with one Forté.



That qualifier needs to be kept in mind for the Forté, as well.

I'm not saying the Forté isn't great and it may very well be everything you and some others are stating that it is, but maybe bold claims should be withheld until there is a sample size greater than 1.

The claim that EK43 alignment sucks is verified by Rao's experience and the experience of others.

To be fair, Rao disclaims that he may be lucky with the Forte's alignment. But what he says is that a perfectly aligned EK43 and a perfectly aligned Forte make the same tasting coffee to him.

The problem with the Forte, as I stated previously, is there is SO LITTLE about it published. There is stuff from 2014 when it launched, and then some one offs. Not much discussion at all so I have no idea if they are mostly well aligned or not. I'd wager that MOST Forte's sold are to small cafe's for pourover (BG version) and a few here and there to home users who go to a Clive/WLL/SCG asking for an all purpose grinder and end up with the AP after they talk to the sales person. Most Baratza discussion on this site is Sette or Vario related (where the Sette buyer is getting into espresso and the Vario user moved on from his Vario and installed the Steel burrs and is dedicated it to brew).

Another reason is because it's a Baratza appliance rather than a cafe grinder. Most of the prominent / well-respected users on here haven't tried it because they already have their dream grinder (Monolith, EK43, Peak, K10, etc) so why would they bother? I don't blame them.

Is it a bold claim? Absolutely. My entire coffee set up is based upon bold claims (Monolith -- perfect alignment; best grinder; DE1PRO -- perfect control; best overall domestic machine). Maybe I'm a sucker for people who speak boldly but I really love the espresso I'm making so I'm happy.

My point in all of this? The claims of ulterior motives are unfair and unfounded in my opinion. If we're looking for something 'fun' and more productive to do, perhaps a group of us get together and bring a Forte BG and EK43 and do a series of blind taste tastes (like the Sette vs K30 HB review) and see how they stack up? In other words, let's stop the friendly fire and start what could be an interesting experiment.

I never said anything about ulterior motives. I personally take his words as sincere even if I regard their accuracy with a healthy dose of skepticism.

And again. A bold claim based off a sample size of 1 is different than a bold claim made by many others to back it up which the monolith and even the DE1+ at this point has. A bold claim is also very different when it is coming straight from the user's mouth (in this case, Scott's blog) vs somebody reading the article and declaring the grinder the best sub 3000 grinder on the market.

I think it'd be pretty awesome if the Forté ends up being this diamond in the rough. And I admire your passion to want to find out if it's true. We need more people like yourself interested in taking the risk to try out other units for various styles of espresso and coffee to substantiate any claims. Right now they don't mean much.

JayBeck wrote:He makes $0 if people start buying Fortes. He also doesn't have any financial interest whereby he would make money if people quit buying Ek43s. The answer is 'none.'

The way Rao makes money is EXTREMELY simple to understand and EXTREMELY common for anyone whose career is 'consulting.'

https://www.scottrao.com/consulting-services

This is why he always refuses to make equipment recommendations or to compare 'x' to 'y'.' Consumer opinion is easily swayed by reviews, especially by 'professionals.' The reason he did his post is actually quite simple: He keeps seeing the same problem over and over and over again -- someone spends $2700 on an EK43 because they've heard it was the 'best.' They try and try and try and cannot make great coffee. And the reason they cannot make great coffee is a stock EK43 has manufacturing tolerances so wide that perfect or near-perfect alignment out of the box is a unicorn experience.

I base my comments on the middle of the article:

"While the first EK43 I owned happened to produce impressive results, I've since used about one hundred EK's and I've realized that I was lucky: that first machine happened to have been well aligned. Only about 10% of the Ek43's I've used since then have had such good alignment. Poorly aligned Ek43's are the norm, a problem Mahlkonig has chosen not to resolve, and a problem that has caused their quality-oriented users endless grief and wasted time, as users have had to personally realign the burrs both out of the box and upon each burr change, a frustrating process. There is no excuse for selling such an expensive grinder that usually underperforms right out of the box. Nor should customers have to spend so much precious time bringing the grinder's performance up to a reasonable standard.

Because of the Ek43's alignment issue, I desperately wanted to avoid overpaying for a machine that would give me fits. I'm pleased to report that the Forté extracts higher than any EK43 I have ever used, makes tastier coffee than any EK43 I have ever used, and can grind much finer than most EK43's. "

That is how it is with every single grinder made by any of the major companies, Mahlkonigs EK43 ain't no different, so expecting them to do what no else dos is both naive and total lack of understanding how such companies think and operate.

Mahlkonig ain't going to fundamentally change that approch before the wide audience understand how much propper alignment means, and start demandig lower tollerances and better alignment. Or at least untill it's competitor dos it, however that dosen't exactly look like that is going to happen anytime soon. However it's entirely false they haven't done anything the champer is CNC down to much lower tolerances today, the burr carriere is a snug fit, yes it could still be better, but as long as their competitor can't come up with something better there are no logic reason to improve it further, and no Neither Titus, Lyn Weber nor Kafatek can be viewed as such.

He had an ek that where propper aligned and now he has a forte that is, but all of a sudden that one grinder is something special, he make the exact same mistake as he did the first time! There is no such thing when you get it from a traditional manufacturer, so you might get lucky, however the odd chance for you to be that lucky is relatively small.

Said in another way minimum aligned grinders is the norm, or you could call it badly aligned if you prefer, whatever floats your boat. No manufacturers are caring much about it, the reason they have done a minimum of effort of a late is due to the attention alignment have gotten of a late, so now they can say in their marketing brochure that it's better aligned than ever before, even though these are still relatively badly aligned

RyanP wrote:I never said anything about ulterior motives. I personally take his words as sincere even if I regard their accuracy with a healthy dose of skepticism.

And again. A bold claim based off a sample size of 1 is different than a bold claim made by many others to back it up which the monolith and even the DE1+ at this point has. A bold claim is also very different when it is coming straight from the user's mouth (in this case, Scott's blog) vs somebody reading the article and declaring the grinder the best sub 3000 grinder on the market.

I think it'd be pretty awesome if the Forté ends up being this diamond in the rough. And I admire your passion to want to find out if it's true. We need more people like yourself interested in taking the risk to try out other units for various styles of espresso and coffee to substantiate any claims. Right now they don't mean much.

The comment on ulterior motives wasn't directed at you. I started to not quote but did want to clarify. Sorry about that.

Also 'best' is a relative term. There are many things to consider in a purchase so 'best' compared to what and what is the appropriate weight to give to the various factors involved in a purchase: Price, Size, Durability, Performance, Aesthetics, etc. I probably shouldn't have used the word best and likely got caught up in a very interesting and surprising article.

For example: I think the DE1PRO is the 'best' domestic espresso machine (IMHO) for a lot of reasons I've discussed in other threads. And while I still believe that, why do I want a Profitec Pro 800 with matching custom wood size panels, knobs, and Naked-Portafilter pressure gauge attached? I don't think the espresso will taste any better but man would it be a cool looking machine that's fun to use (aka actually 'pull' a shot, lol). Plus, I'd love a 3.5L steam boiler not because I need to steam milk in 10 seconds but more horsepower is always fun!

One of the things I rate high on the DE1PRO is it's size. I want my espresso machine in my kitchen and I don't want it taking up tons of space. For folks who are using a cart somewhere else in the house, have a giant kitchen, or perhaps have a whole coffee dedicated room, then the size of the DE1 is worth $0 to them whereas it's worth a good chunk of change to me.

Likewise as other users have stated: Part of Scott's claims may very well be the types of shots he's pulling coupled with the beans he's using. Other users may be searching for different shots that a Forte couldn't do (not sure, just hypothesizing). Certainly claims of durability are objective: EK43 is a tank. Forte is a well built appliance that does have a duty cycle on it for 'light use.' Also -- Ek43 may be working 10+ years where the only thing changed is the burrs. A Forte user might be on machine #3 by then. For somewhere where durability is rated very high, Forte would never be considered whereas the typical home user doesn't need a tank (but if they love horsepower, like my Pro 800 desire, then I can see why one would pay 'up' to get a tank of a grinder and feel its giving them value).

malling wrote:That is how it is with every single grinder made by any of the major companies, Mahlkonigs EK43 ain't no different, so expecting them to do what no else dos is both naive and total lack of understanding how such companies think and operate.

Talk about bold claims! If "every single grinder" has alignment as bad as what has been reported with the EK43, where are all the posts (here and elsewhere) reflecting such?

The pre 2017 Ek43 had a lot of alignment problems. From 5 grinders tested the play was between 0.03 (on the limited edition) up to 0.10 on normal ek43.

In 2018, they changed something in the process of making (new CNC.milling) and the new grinders are not that bad, they are max 0.03um. This is ok, just that between 0.030um and 0.005 um there is a big difference in taste, and in grinding set point. After you aligned it you can grind way finer than before.

For example with some extra light coffee you would touch the burrs and still could not pull an extra long shot. All major companies have problems with tolerances, the difference is with mahlkonig you can adjust the alignment precisely of the fix burr and the mobile burr. With others grinders (lets take k30, or ProM) you cannot align the upper burr.

So yea, this is why people align ek43, because it is rigid, rock solid and you can align it really good. Conical grinders do a different distribution, and the alignment is not that important or doesn't have such a huge impact as on flat grinders.

DaveB wrote:Talk about bold claims! If "every single grinder" has alignment as bad as what has been reported with the EK43, where are all the posts (here and elsewhere) reflecting such?

Simply because those who write about EK tend to care about such things. Allot of people who have purchased an EK did it to get a "more" unimodal grind, when that doesn't happen, people obviously get disappointed, disappointed people tend to write page up and down.

Most people who get a traditional grinder doesn't care or often doesn't know it's a problem and often they want a more traditional espresso made on more traditional roast where a less unimodal grind simply means less. Mazzer have actually at one time admitted the less unimodal grind where by design as it suits the traditional italian roasts. Anyone who actually bothered to test alignment and particle distribution knows traditional grinders aren't a precision instrument, the alignment is often piss poor/ none existent, heck people where hyping the most imprecise type of burrs for decades, it was first with the introduction of lighter roasts people realised it might not live up to its hype.

Secondly most design doesn't let you have a high precision, or for that matter let you correct it, With EK you can get a very high precision if you make an aftermarket alignment.