Are "fluffier" coffee grounds better? - Page 6

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
jpender
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#51: Post by jpender »

pcrussell50 wrote:I dunno? Can I count the people who have posted in this thread who find RDT(or WDT) to be a disruptor to an elegant workflow?

Count them? A straw man has no name.

pcrussell50 wrote:On their web site, of all places. In the same block of text where they mention they include an RDT spritzer AND a WDT tool with every grinder. And at the bottom, they say...

Thanks for that "link". It's a beautiful grinder. They say "less than 0.5 grams without RDT and about 0g with RDT, all of course depending on moisture left in roasted bean".

Half a gram is huge! I'd use RDT every single dose if even half that much were typical for me.

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Jake_G
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#52: Post by Jake_G »

I'm half tempted to split this thread given the RDT/WDT tangent and now we're talking retention.

BUT

It's worth noting that Monolith retention is not measured like other grinders. When Denis says 0.5g retention, he's referring to what you would find inside of a grinder if you opened it up and measured all the dust and hidden bits inside after using it for an extended period of time. This is not a situation of "output = input +/- 0.5g". This translates to taking a freshly cleaned grinder and dropping an 18g dose into it. How much comes out?

If you use RDT, you get between 17.9 and 18g out on the first dose. Literally nothing aside from a light dusting is retained. If you don't RDT, you can expect 17.5g to come out of the first 18g dose. Thereafter you will get between 17.9 and 18.1 if not 17.95 and 18.05. The grinders are absurd.

By contrast, my super Jolly also "retains" almost nothing in terms of what goes in and what goes out. The difference is that there is about 6g of coffee jammed into all the nooks and crannies of my grinder and it takes about 5 doses after cleaning it out before I get that <0.1g variation between what goes in and what goes out.

I am not sure what grinder you are using, but if you open it up after a month of use and find significantly less than 0.5g retained inside, I'm smitten.

Cheers!

- Jake
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AssafL
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#53: Post by AssafL »

Now that is something I have a really difficult time believing in....

Coffee gets stuck in the burr teeth. If not in one month in 5.
Coffee over time adheres to the lips of the burrs. A small "coffee butter" like paste.
Coffee over time settles in the hex head bolts holding the burrs.
Coffee over time adheres to even vertical planes, Even when coated with wax.

Over time coffee leaves a patina everywhere. Obviously Mazzer are the masters of designing nooks and crannies that collect even more (I had a mazzer mini e and the thing had enough nooks to hold a dose) stuff. But even paddles and wipers accumulate coffee oils.

I have a hard time believing that RDT would make coffee stickiness go away. Maybe very light roasts will stick less?
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

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AssafL
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#54: Post by AssafL »

Back OT - I think the answer to the original question is that fluffiness by itself isn't necessarily a desirable thing.

But if the fluffiness is of the sort that reflects good puck homogeneity, and level enough to help with distribution - it is indeed a great quality to have.
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

OldNuc
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#55: Post by OldNuc »

Stirring ground coffee in a filter basket is the small scale equivalent of harrowing a field, brings the rocks to the surface and the fines go down.

pcrussell50
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#56: Post by pcrussell50 »

jpender wrote: Half a gram is huge! I'd use RDT every single dose if even half that much were typical for me.
I don't know if I'd call it huge, but if it can be measured on a typical espresso scale, (0.1g), and can be eliminated with an easy step, that's what I do.

To the extent that this got off topic, it might have been partially my fault. I'll try a tabular summary:

My old grinder before removal of static reducing homogenizing device (state 1):
physical retention: 0.1-0.5g
static retention: 0.0
fluffiness: "ordinary fluffy" (whatever that means) about like a typical commercial grinder like a Kony or K10 or K30

My old grinder after removal of static reducing homogenizing device (state 2):
Since static is now possible, physical and static retention become intertwined. With static possible, RDT becomes a player and the numbers become almost identical to Kafatek's:
With RDT retention: 0-0.1g
Without RDT retention: 0-0.5g
fluffiness: Off the charts. Not possible to grind 18.0g into an 18.0g VST basket without a funnel without undue risk of spillage. Not possible to remove the funnel without spillage without first stirring down the pile (WDT).

In state 2, (the super fluffy state), RDT has an effect that is detectable on a typical espresso scale. Sometimes it is small. Sometimes it is larger. Since it is a variable that can be damped (pun intended) by RDT, I do. And due to fluffiness, WDT is always called for...

Finally, I feel it is worth noting that these numbers for my old grinder in state 2, are a close match to my Kafatek and my LWW, which are both single dosing grinders WITHOUT static reducing homogenizing devices. Coincidence? Or inherent characteristic of single dosers without homogenizing devices?

-Peter
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jpender
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#57: Post by jpender »

Jake_G wrote:It's worth noting that Monolith retention is not measured like other grinders. When Denis says 0.5g retention, he's referring to what you would find inside of a grinder if you opened it up and measured all the dust and hidden bits inside after using it for an extended period of time. This is not a situation of "output = input +/- 0.5g". This translates to taking a freshly cleaned grinder and dropping an 18g dose into it. How much comes out?

If you use RDT, you get between 17.9 and 18g out on the first dose. Literally nothing aside from a light dusting is retained. If you don't RDT, you can expect 17.5g to come out of the first 18g dose. Thereafter you will get between 17.9 and 18.1 if not 17.95 and 18.05. The grinders are absurd.

Thanks for the clarification. And for what it's worth, I wasn't quoting Denis; that line was from the Kafatek website.

Jake_G wrote:I am not sure what grinder you are using, but if you open it up after a month of use and find significantly less than 0.5g retained inside, I'm smitten.

I have two hand grinders, an original version OE Lido and a Kinu M47 Phoenix. I took apart the Phoenix and cleaned it out and then carefully weighed beans in vs. grinds out for two 18g shots. The first had a retention of 0.17g and the second was 0.08g. If I bothered to use a brush to collect the grinds adhering to the bottom of grinder the retention of the second dose would have been 0.04g. But I never do that. I just tap it a couple of times and then blow on the bottom of the grinder.

Now with RDT could I perhaps gain a few hundredths of a gram? I wonder. Would it be elegant? :-)

Nunas
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#58: Post by Nunas »

I don't even tamp any more. I set one of my distribution tools to the right headspace, spin it down, and done.
Yup, me too. Shortly after I got my Sette 270Wi I quit RDT, WDT and tamping. After grinding, I give the PF a few light thumps on the tamping stand, which gives a reasonable distribution, followed by gently pressing the tamper down until the top edge is level with the basket. I pay attention to getting it perfectly level, then finish off with a spin. Frankly, that last polish of the grinds is probably not necessary either. I suppose, technically I'm still "tamping", but the amount of pressure needed is probably way less than five or ten pounds...possibly only two or three. I can't recall the last time I had a channeling issue.

Incidentally, while recently watching an Orphan Espresso demo of a Pharos, I noticed the technique recommended when using that grinder is essentially the same as what I'm doing.

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TheMadTamper
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#59: Post by TheMadTamper »

OldNuc wrote:Stirring ground coffee in a filter basket is the small scale equivalent of harrowing a field, brings the rocks to the surface and the fines go down.
That sounds less like homogenization and more like sifting and separating. If it really worked like that, wouldn't it have a negative effect? I'd hope it's not really doing that!
pcrussell50 wrote:I dunno? Can I count the people who have posted in this thread who find RDT(or WDT) to be a disruptor to an elegant workflow?
Finding it fiddly, counter-productive if you don't actually need it, and disruptive of a smooth workflow doesn't count as being against it exactly. As I said, firmly believe it's a tool to solve specific problems resulting from certain equipment. If you own said pieces of equipment, WDT is advantageous, if not essential to fix the problem your grinder unloaded in your basket. I'm not so much anti-WDT. I'm anti-equipment that makes WDT actually beneficial. It does do a great job working around problems inadequate hardware creates. I just happen to be of the opinion that a better solution is using equipment that doesn't create that problem in the first place, while WDT is an acceptable way to be able to use equipment attainable at a more budget friendly price point. And I happen to find any grinder at the $1000+ price point, or really even $700+ that dumps an unusable mess in your basket that you then have to stir with craft store items to make a basket properly suited for brewing is doing something horribly wrong, assuming it's a machine purportedly designed to produce espresso (assuming it's being used in the manner it's intended, of course. I can certainly appreciate that pulling static screens and single dosing with a grinder not designed for it will have special workarounds required as a result....but in that sense I still think doser grinders make more sense for that application if not getting a dedicated single dose grinder....and they're cheaper, too!)

While there are exceptions, generally, a grinder not producing a fluffy output, probably is going to need WDT to "fix" the random distribution. It won't settle out on its own. Fluffy output can settle into an even distribution with some simple tapping, and is going to be more evenly affected by a spinny distribution tool. WDT, essentially, is just making your unfluffy grinds fluffy by giving them a fluffing outside the grinder.
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pcrussell50
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#60: Post by pcrussell50 »

TheMadTamper wrote: While there are exceptions, generally, a grinder not producing a fluffy output, probably is going to need WDT to "fix" the random distribution. It won't settle out on its own. Fluffy output can settle into an even distribution with some simple tapping, and is going to be more evenly affected by a spinny distribution tool. WDT, essentially, is just making your unfluffy grinds fluffy by giving them a fluffing outside the grinder.
My grinder leaves a giant fluffy pile that needs to be dealt with. I use a WDT tool to stir down the fluffy pile. I find it more faster, more elegant, and more effective than tapping. And then I use a spinny distribution tool set to the proper headspace so I don't need to tamp at all. Tamper stays in the drawer now, except for rare exceptions. Since this grinder has had it's homogenizing device removed, RDT takes static retention from 0-0.5g down to 0-0.1g... Pretty close to the figures Kafatek publishes for my Kafatek grinder. The upper range of possible retention without RDT is beyond my personal tolerance limit. And repeated testing of each new grind comparing RDT to no RDT is too. So I RDT all the time every time and never look back.

-Peter
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