98mm Burrs for Brew - Page 16

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
franklin270h

#151: Post by franklin270h »

zero610 wrote:There are so many different names for SSP burrs and it seems to just be getting worse. Just to clarify, geometry of EG-1 Ultra burrs = SSP HU burrs?
Yes. Though when comparing burr sizes, uniformity is relative. The bigger the burr the more potential for uniformity due to longer cutting path and higher linear speed of the edges (at a given RPM, a big burr has a higher linear speed than a smaller burr therefore is effectively more aggressive). Also the tradeoff of potentially more fines if you go with an aggressive design. So it takes different designs to hit a goal with any burr size. The 98mm HU burrs for example tend to be a lot more aggressive than the 80mm multipurpose and a little more espresso specific due to it, though they're capable of decent filter results. There are other differences too like the 98mm HU design having a cutting path using the entire surface area of the burr, where the 80mm has a shorter second stage similar to the original Ditting design, so the 80mm ones aren't quite as specific for espresso use and are more multipurpose.

That's generally why the deep outfall, less aggressive designs do well on 98mm for filter whereas for smaller burrs it takes a more aggressive design to give a similar grind characteristic. If you take something like the Ode with it's stock super deep filter burrs, the fine end of the dial near burr touching is barely fine enough to do a v60 with.

In case of the EG, it's probably worth noting that the other two burrs where originally Compak R80 burrs, and then the custom core burrs that they call "Medium fines' which are really a Mythos style espresso burr, so compared to those two the HU style of burr is certainly the filter oriented, lower fine option. Going by all their marketing at events and the charts it was: Base: Bimodal, Core: Medium Fines, Ultra: Low Fines. Different nomenclature entirely from SSP's.

SSP's 98mm "Ultra Low Fines" is a custom one-off Ditting toothed style design request from a competitor, and his Low Uniformity burrs are ones he was originally going to call "Low Fines" and some of them had "Low Fines" on the box too. So that's a lot of the reason why there's confusion. I've found most of the people that have "Low Fines" EK burrs really have the Low Uniformity ones. Personally I found the Ultra Low ones to be a poor design that wasn't particularly good at anything to be honest.

coffeeOnTheBrain

#152: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain »

zero610 wrote:There are so many different names for SSP burrs and it seems to just be getting worse. Just to clarify, geometry of EG-1 Ultra burrs = SSP HU burrs?
I was told by Han that the Weber 80mm Ultra burrs are almost the same, but not identical to the version he is selling.
I did get contradicting answers by him to a different question before. So I do not think that Han is the most reliable source when asking for details about his burrs ;)
I am not saying that I know that the burrs are different, I am saying one would need to put them side by side. Also maybe he did change either one to match the other or created a new version different and superior to the previous version(s), who knows.

I was told that the Weber Ultra have higher teeth in the last grinding stage and that magnets of the Weber version and the Tanzania version are different.

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coffeemmichael
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#153: Post by coffeemmichael »

rmongiovi wrote:When you seem to have stumbled on a GOAT brew burr design how do you justify abandoning it?
Here's my big sarcastic thank-you to the legions of people who complained about flow & "it doesn't grind fine enough", prompting MK to "listen to the customer"

Because workflow porn trumps flavor, right? :wink:

cccpu

#154: Post by cccpu » replying to coffeemmichael »

Welcome back coffeemichael- it's been too long...
LMWDP #583

franklin270h

#155: Post by franklin270h »

coffeemmichael wrote:Here's my big sarcastic thank-you to the legions of people who complained about flow & "it doesn't grind fine enough", prompting MK to "listen to the customer"

Because workflow porn trumps flavor, right? :wink:
Exactly the issue. That and older lines of thinking like trying to make a shot hit at the 30 second mark.

That and people making espresso on a burr not particularly intended for it when Mk already offered a Turkish burr that ground significantly finer.

Now with preinfusion and the Decent it's shifted to where often the multipurpose HU designs (SSP 80mm, 98mm) are toeing the same line that the old cast MK coffee burrs were toeing on standard 6/9 bar pump machines, and people blame alignment and everything else

Eiern

#156: Post by Eiern »

Now that I have had a set of 98mm SSP Ultra Low Fines Red Speed, both in the EK43S and in the Lagom P100 for a good while I'm confident writing some words based on my experience. They have had a good amount of kilos through them, I ground ~6kg before I started using them and have been using them daily and tried lots of shots and different ratios so much more than just a shot or two each day. They cleaned up and settled after a while, so I get more pretty looking pours and less likely to bump into dry/bitter/astringent off flavors than in the beginning.

I bought this set as I was curious about how they would fare for espresso, and also wondered how they tasted for brew, it's not that many user reviews on these and some like them and some don't. SSP suggest these for cupping and brewing, and have written they are not for espresso. Later they wrote in a personal message to a potential buyer they was also for espresso. They don't work as traditional espresso burrs though like slow flow 1:2 ratio in my experience doesn't work well.

For filter brews, in the EK43S some decent body with some sweetness, they extract well measured, but these are actually not very clear in presenting aromas. I'm a bit pussled why they are recommended for cupping then. It also doesn't feel like they have that much less fines than other burrs. If I go coarser it's not much more clear aromas coming forth, it just gets weak and acidic. In the P100 at lower speeds they are not that much more clear either, but there is less body and sweetness and it just taste weak and weird, not enjoyable filter to me.

Compared to the HU burrs, newest Red Speed, which actually taste more clear in aroma presentation but more focused in presentation and almost strong at the same time as a little thin bodied in the P100. My experience with an older set of Silver Knight HU was very different, back then I always had this dry bitterness I couldn't get rid of, if I went too coarse or too fine, always there tainting the filter brews. I never really got a likable brew, those had litte to no body, and little sweetness. The new Red Speed HU set that came with the P100 are actually different. I don't battle the same dry bitterness, when in the EK43S it actually has decent body, sweetness and clarity, although there is some dark muddied presentation in the mix I'm not too fond of, that go away a little if I go coarse enough, but then I find the brew a little lacking in other areas.

I have a set of 98mm SSP Brew burrs from Titus on the way, they have them coated locally instead of SSP coated, and those will be used solely for filter in the EK. I hope those will clear up that dark/mud from the HU burrs and be just be awesome heh. Will come back with review on those.

For espresso though, in the EK43s, the ULF gave me punchy, high body espresso with long aftertaste, not super clear aromas but you got an idea of what you were drinking. Fast-ish flow, need to do 1:3 to not taste acidic even if extraction is high by measurment.

In the P100 at lower speeds they more clearly present aromas, have good body, good sweetness and I don't battle acidity as muh as in the EK, but I still go to 1:3 with quality beans, as long as I don't hit defects/dryness. I usually extract nordic filter roast to 24-26% without side effects with these and intend to keep using them for espresso as I like the presentation and the longer ratio.

With HU in P100 I find I also get clear, sweet, nice bodied espresso, both burrs pretty fast flowing and I'm actually only at 86c temp on my Bianca with both, but the HU extract fast and need tighter ratios, and tend to taste a little more intense/strong, I like them but I seem to prefer a little more in the cup and the ULF seem to be more alike what I've been used to coming from 1:3 EK43 shots for a few years.
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Eiern

#157: Post by Eiern »

Posted this in the dedicated 98mm SSP Titus Brew burr thread, but will paste here as well:

Having had some more time with the brew burrs now, I'll chime in with some experience. They are in my EK43S with Titus carrier. I tried them briefly in the Lagom P100 and they performed pretty similar there, but should have a shim as the deeper outfall fell below the P100 burr carrier rim hindering effective ejection of grounds.

At first the brews were a bit odd, they were often perceived as weak and thin even though the brew measured high, and usually had some amount of either dryness or astringency in them that was not enjoyable. It was hard to get the grind setting just right to avoid off flavors, and sometimes the best result was going a little too fine to get a high extraction that covered up any unpleasant astringency. If this hadn't changed I wouldn't be too happy about them.

The burrs have since had some more kilos of beans through them and they have settled down to something I really enjoy. So they seem to need a good seasoning period in my experience. My set coming from Titus had yellow ZrN coating.

At first I found V60 didn't work too well, as it was highlighting the weak presentation, the Kalita brews felt better in that regard but I don't enjoy using the smaller Kalita that much because of repeatability issues with smaller dose. It clogs more easily and stalls if I swirl the brewer to settle an uneven bed.

Lately I've been mostly on V60 for small brews and both Kalita and V60 for bigger brews. Most brews are in the range of 22-24% extraction, with no more problems with weakness or astringency/dryness, and with quality beans no off flavors at 24%. I can also enjoy a wider range of grind settings now with different resulting extractions, tried a bean from 24% down to 22% and all was drinkable even though I preferred some over the others. This I find good as it makes them more forgiving, I don't get punished that hard by not being totally dialed in with a bean.

The brews are not hyper clean, they are rather just a very good traditional coffee. Sweetness is good, body is good, balance is good, flavors are there but with V60 not in your face or one note focused hyper clean, a little more blended or complex than that. Aftertaste lingers well too. The best brews I really can't fault, they are not too *insert whatever* just well extracted, nicely presented coffee, that taste like coffee and not tea.

Side by side with HU they are cleaner, HU burrs are actually quite good for filter, but have more of a dry bitterness in it that while not in the forefront does taint the brew a little and present it more as traditional nutty profile, while the cleaner Brew burr not having this was perceived as more juicy fruity, taking that out of the balance. They are like an improved HU but they share a little DNA, they are the same burr with just a different finishing section changing the presentation a little. I prefer them to new EK burrs as well (had briefly side by side).

So at the moment I'm very happy, and I think I have found a filter set I will stick with.

I have only done a few more espressos, but they work well for that, they are like a laid back HU burr, so I can go a little longer in the cup, like 1:2,5 and a little more toward 1:3 at times, don't battle bitterness as much, they extract HIGH and clean, but less traditional espresso than HU. Thinner body, high clarity, well extracted, more like consentrated filter. Not as intense. It's cool to have the option to have that version of espresso in addition to Ultra Low Fines.

I would be happy if I could only have one grinder with these Brew burrs for dual use. I do like the Ultra Low Fines more for my daily espresso though, as it has a little more blended aromas, but more body. The ULF is not very traditional either. I almost always get a great cup with 1:3 ratio in 20-30 seconds with good light filter roast. I don't like ULF burrs as much for filter brews though, they have a nice body and sweetness but harder to really taste the beans unique flavors in my experience.

So a thumbs up from me. I have not tried Low Uniformity or real Pre 15 EK burrs, but so far these are my favorite 98mm filter burr.







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chr514

#158: Post by chr514 »

I think ek pre-2015 burr is best for brew