3 Burr Sets, 1 Grinder. Worth It? - Page 2

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
Jonk

#11: Post by Jonk »

dsc106 wrote:I didn't realize gorilla gears was for espresso? Lance said it was for filter as well, but more akin to a Kinu grinder profile.
You can brew filter with a Kinu as well, but the burrs are very much espresso focused. It's a matter of preference of course, to my surprise Matt Winton used a Kinu in WBrC: https://www.instagram.com/p/CWJnEEAsv2g/ - but you could probably just as well use your Niche instead then.
The Gorilla Gear 64mm Black burrs have been designed and made to suit a Mazzer Super Jolly or anything similar
My guess is that they're marketing those burrs towards the Ode because they happen to fit, but neither designed for the Ode or specifically for filter.

Either way, the reason I like having more than one grinder at hand is that it's easy to try with another if the first doesn't feel like a good fit for the beans. It would be quite annoying having to switch out the burrs first, perhaps only to find that it made things worse.

dsc106 (original poster)

#12: Post by dsc106 (original poster) »

Just to clarify further - for the burrs the thought wasn't to swap out and try different burrs with a different bean, but rather to live with a set for a few months and roll with it, then live with another set and roll with it. Take notes and gather a general impression.

Good to know on the gorilla burrs, there is very little published on their distribution or intended use case.

Hmmm maybe it would be better to just try 2 sets out - the unimodal multipurpose vs the cast ditting lab sweet?

malling

#13: Post by malling »

dsc106 wrote:Thanks for the replies so far everyone. As far as I know the owner at SSP stated their lab sweet burrs are in fact cast.

I didn't realize gorilla gears was for espresso? Lance said it was for filter as well, but more akin to a Kinu grinder profile.

The thought would not be to constantly swap, but to spend a couple months with one burr set from my favorite local micro roaster, then swap the set, spend a couple months, swap the set, etc.

I would presume in a couple years, the burrs would hold their resell value well - or even increase in value due to inflation trajectories, and as seasoned burrs?

Essentially I'm nervous the MP burrs will be too clear; enter the lab sweet burrs. And the gorilla gears would just be for fun. To see if I can taste a meaningful difference.

I do plan to get something like an Acaia Orbit / P64 in a 2-3 years, so perhaps I'd end up keeping 2 burr sets and selling the third in a couple years for similar value?
I would not count on it, my experience so far is it doesn't hold value particularly well. Cast burrs as found in EK43 now that is a different matter, particularly if these are coffee burrs pre 2015, the same with any other cast Ditting, these are the only burrs I ever seen holding a decent percentage of new prices. The only burrs I seen holding it's value entirely is as I wrote the coffee burrs predating 2015 even if these are dull as they can in experienced hand be resharpen.

But machined burrs don't hold its value well and I don't anticipate these ever will. Even not used ones I can easily find on ebay for often 70-80% of new from a reseller.

I did what you think about doing believe me it get annoying fast, also without having them site by site you won't really know if your actually tasting a difference or it's your imagination or caused by a dozen other factors. Meaning you cannot really conclude anything.

dsc106 (original poster)

#14: Post by dsc106 (original poster) »

malling wrote:I did what you think about doing believe me it get annoying fast, also without having them site by site you won't really know if your actually tasting a difference or it's your imagination or caused by a dozen other factors. Meaning you cannot really conclude anything.
Why all the hoopla about burrs then? The way people talk about it, you'd think it was night and day. But you're saying these burrs would be so close that I wouldn't even be able to reliably put a finger on a difference?

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luca
Team HB

#15: Post by luca »

_Ryan_ wrote: Do you know if they're readily available to hire in Melbourne?

I'd been looking online this weekend at buying one and trying to make sense of buying a brix unit and doing conversions vs buying a "coffee calibrated" unit (which I presume is using some variation of the VST algorithm), for home use. Then there are the AliExpress units which some have compared to brand name and they're within tolerance. [i believe this is an aliexpress style unit, and most units <$300 visually appear the same as the units on aliexpress for $100 https://towardsdatascience.com/affordab ... 367efb5aa4 ]


(sorry OP, I was about to make a new thread on this topic then piggybacked when Luca mentioned it)
I don't, but I'd just ask your local roasters and cafes. I'd bet there would be a bunch of places that have them sitting around and would like the opportunity to make some money from them. They'd probably want a deposit and to know that they'll get it back in a short period of time; eg. over a weekend. If you can't dig something up, you can message me and I can see if I can lend you mine, though I'm investigating some stuff for people that has me using it quite a bit. They're the sort of thing where you'd want to use them for a short period of time, but for most people, you'd probably use it to check you're in the ballpark, then it would sit in a drawer forever or only be used occasionally, so it makes little sense to spend a lot to own one. That said, I don't know how good the cheaper ones are.
LMWDP #034 | 2011: Q Grader Exam, Brewer's Cup #3, Australian Cup Tasting #1

malling

#16: Post by malling »

dsc106 wrote:Why all the hoopla about burrs then? The way people talk about it, you'd think it was night and day. But you're saying these burrs would be so close that I wouldn't even be able to reliably put a finger on a difference?
It's definitely not night and day, go in and see Hoffmann who proves he in triangular can guess different burrs correctly, most cannot even do so. He speaks very clearly about diminishing returns and about them as relatively small differences in their balance. No burrs is going to make a fruity coffee taste like chocolate and walnuts nor the other way around a fruity acidic coffee will be fruity and acidic no matter what grinder you throw it into. These might spotlight certain aspect somewhat more then others like SSP, or blend the flavours more like a conical etc. but we are talking nuances and balances here, not night and day differences, put it in front of average joe and he might never notice any difference or at best that these doesn't taste exactly the same.

There is allot of exaggeration going on and confirmation biase. If you done cupping and triangular you would know what I talk about here.

dsc106 (original poster)

#17: Post by dsc106 (original poster) »

malling wrote:No burrs is going to make a fruity coffee taste like chocolate and walnuts nor the other way around a fruity acidic coffee will be fruity and acidic no matter what grinder you throw it into.
Just to be clear, I am not expecting that - but rather, emphasis and balance differences.

I suppose I am just confused, because by the logic of this thread in combination with what I've seen online, the Niche Zero and Ode w/SSP should perform basically the same then.

Here is what I mean:

Lance says the Niche Zero is a "4/10" for filter. He says the Ode+SSP is an "8.5/10". In his video he says the Gorilla Gears are equally good as the SSP Multipurpose, just different end of the spectrum - saying the Gorilla Gears might be like a Kinu vs the SSP like a Commandante. Other people say the Ode+SSP is night/day difference between a Virtuoso and/or Niche Zero. Other says the Vario is a big step up from either of those grinders, and the Ode+SSP is an even bigger step up.

Ok, but now I'm reading the Gorilla Gears which may act like a Kinu are essentially the same as my Niche Zero. Which means they aren't "equally as good as the SSP (8.5/10)", that would make them a 4/10. Elsewhere I read the Commandante is perhaps 5%-15% better than a Kinu for filter drip if you want more clarity. But supposedly, elsewhere, I read the Niche is a 4/10 for filter and Commandante a 7/10.

Thus:

If 64mm SSP v2 MP is very similar to Gorilla Gear 64mm
And, If Gorilla Gear 64mm is very similar to Kinu
And, If Kinu is very similar to Niche
Then, SSP v2 MP is very similar to Niche

If SSP v2 MP is very similar to Commandante
And if Commandante vs Kinu are very similar
Then, Commandante is very similar to Niche, and thus, SSP v2 MP are very similar to Niche

I know these are just arbitrary numbers to describe a non quantifiable taste experience, I get that. I am just perplexed at how on one hand, people speak of very large differences in filter brew going from one grinder to another, but supposedly 3 very distinct burr sets will render cups so similar that unless I am doing a direct side by side I wouldn't even notice?

malling

#18: Post by malling »

dsc106 wrote:I suppose I am just confused, because by the logic of this thread in combination with what I've seen online, the Niche Zero and Ode w/SSP should perform basically the same then.
No, they don't the Niche would be more blended the SSP put more spotlight on specific part of the flavour and be more transparet.

Conicals as found in this type are really mostly espresso, filter isn't what these are best at, I guess you can state the same with those Mazzer and Italmill flat burrs. Espresso burrs just typically do something less then desirable to anything that isn't espresso, that is not to say it's horrible and undrinkable it just leaves something to be desired, for example some have an unpleasant slight bittering to the brew and can be rather uninteresting because these mellow the brew to much, but some like that.
Here is what I mean:

Lance says the Niche Zero is a "4/10" for filter. He says the Ode+SSP is an "8.5/10". In his video he says the Gorilla Gears are equally good as the SSP Multipurpose, just different end of the spectrum -
Lance is a clarity acidic head, take what he say with a pinch of salt, he rate them after what he finds desirable in a cup.

Also I still find it a bit odd using the term spectrum, the flavours and spectrum is first and foremost dictated by the beans and how these are roasted and to far less extent the grinder, the grinder can then help underline, blend or mellow certain aspects but it's not drastically going to change how a coffee taste, but it can put more spotlight or mellow certain aspect of the characteristic of the specific coffee.

Reality is that two coffees grinded with one grinder will taste for more different then one coffee grinded with two different grinders.

saying the Gorilla Gears might be like a Kinu vs the SSP like a Commandante. Other people say the Ode+SSP is night/day difference between a Virtuoso and/or Niche Zero. Other says the Vario is a big step up from either of those grinders, and the Ode+SSP is an even bigger step up.

The Gorilla gear is espresso burrs and those tend to mellow and blend it more, most other espresso focused burrs would tend to do that too.

Both the Ditting burrs (The steel found in certain vario), SSP brew/unimodal/multi, Ode stocked and even Commandante are designed for other brew methods then espresso so have a different focus, this typically mean more focus on clarity, transparent taste profile so all will be in that direction but to different degrees and with different balance. Which would come up on top really depends on preferences. None of these where originally meant to be used for espresso but some can be used like the SSP and Steel.
Ok, but now I'm reading the Gorilla Gears which may act like a Kinu are essentially the same as my Niche Zero. Which means they aren't "equally as good as the SSP (8.5/10)", that would make them a 4/10. Elsewhere I read the Commandante is perhaps 5%-15% better than a Kinu for filter drip if you want more clarity. But supposedly, elsewhere, I read the Niche is a 4/10 for filter and Commandante a 7/10.
No they won't a flatburr will never perform entirely as a conical and the other way around. Most conical will have a wider distribution then even espresso focused flat burrs. But the Gorilla can sit somewhere between the extremes being a big conical and big flat (bulk, brew burrs) it has typically still more clarity then conical but not nearly as much as brew/bulk specific designs.
I know these are just arbitrary numbers to describe a non quantifiable taste experience, I get that. I am just perplexed at how on one hand, people speak of very large differences in filter brew going from one grinder to another, but supposedly 3 very distinct burr sets will render cups so similar that unless I am doing a direct side by side I wouldn't even notice?
It's not that you won't notice it's more that it's not reliable that the difference you experienced is caused by the grinder. To know that it's indeed the grinder you need a controllable setting where all other aspects are cut out/minimised from the equation.

Jonk

#19: Post by Jonk »

To be fair I'd rather use my Kinu M47 than Niche Zero for filter brewing - they're fairly similar but not identical. 5-15% "better" sounds like a made up figure I'd be highly sceptical of. Sometimes differences can be minor, but sometimes they're just huge.

One example is a Nordic roast I pulled as espresso with the Kinu M47 - fairly astringent/grassy mess. With a Comandante C40 it was instead sweet and pleasant with a strong note of apricot. Closer to infinite improvement in my book.

Ben, have you brewed side by side with the Niche and Ode yet? What is your impression there?

bas

#20: Post by bas »

But the Gorilla can sit somewhere between the extremes being a big conical and big flat (bulk, brew burrs) it has typically still more clarity then conical but not nearly as much as brew/bulk specific designs
Would it be okay to say the Gorilla is more like the SSP High Uniformity?