Controlling shot extraction pattern - Page 2

[Abe Carmeli (original poster)]

get a nuova simonelli double basket. that maxes out around 15 grams.

I just ordered a couple out of curiosity. I don't really need it with the M3 grinder. What is your favorite basket Barry?

[barry]

What is your favorite basket Barry?

for hand dosing/tamping: the stock LM cinch-waist double;
for use with the swift: the LM straight-sided triple.

[HB]

If I dose 15 grams, the grounds do not fill up the basket.

I dose to the best puck-to-head clearance, not a specific weight. But if you want a smaller basket, isn't the stock basket for your Giotto in the strict 14 gram ballpark? Below is a picture of it next to the ubiquitous 18 gram basket.


Giotto stock basket (left) and ubiquitous 18 gram basket (right)

For those looking for a really small double basket, check out this 12 gram basket that was accidentally shipped when I ordered 18 gram baskets:


18 and 12 gram basket

Now I'm curious... what's your interest in these small baskets? Maybe I need to start thinking about them; on a whim I switched to triple baskets over the weekend and noticed a huge dent in my coffee supply by Monday.

[malachi]

So you're trying to downdose.
Ah-hah.

I find the keys to downdosing are:

1) careful initial dosing (I rotate the portafilter under the doser) to get the best possible starting distribution,
2) very gentle handling of the portafilter,
3) applying increasing pressure while distributing (stockfleth's of course).

With point #3 above - the idea is to start by merely moving the "pile" in a rotational pattern to fill in any low spots and then gradually increasing downwards pressure the create best distribution.

All this being said - I find downdosing in the stock LM basket somewhere between difficult and impossible due to the ridge.
I have a shallower Cimbali basket I sometimes use for some coffees, but the basket I most often downdose in is the triple basket.

[Abe Carmeli (original poster)]

I dose to the best puck-to-head clearance, not a specific weight. But if you want a smaller basket, isn't the stock basket for your Giotto in the strict 14 gram ballpark? Below is a picture of it next to the ubiquitous 18 gram basket.

Perhaps I need to make this a little more clear. The Giotto double is for a 14 grams dosage. However, if you dose exactly 14 grams pre leveling, the coffee grounds do not fill the basket. They come below the basket rim and that brought up the question: How do you properly level & distribute 14-15 grams of dosed coffee? Both Schomer & Stockfleth require that pre-leveling the grounds will at least be at the level of the basket rim.

Now I'm curious... what's your interest in these small baskets? Maybe I need to start thinking about them; on a whim I switched to triple baskets over the weekend and noticed a huge dent in my coffee supply by Monday.

Most of my ristrettos are 15 grams shots. But I must say that I do not have a personal interest in the matter. The M3 grinder allows me to dose 14-15 grams and do proper leveling/distribution with even density, as I mentioned earlier. My interest here is for the majority of people who use standard grinders. As to triples, I rarely use them. I drink mostly ristrettos, and do not find a need to use 22 grams of coffee to get a rich and thick cup. 15-16 grams is enough in most cases.

[malachi]

I doubt most people dose by weight - but rather by volume.

Also, keep in mind that on most grinders you trap between 1 and 4 grams of coffee (the Versalab being an exception).

Personally, I've only found one coffee ever that (IMHO) tasted best with a 14 gram dose (in a LM basket). Just my taste perhaps.

[Abe Carmeli (original poster)]

I doubt most people dose by weight - but rather by volume.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the weight here. Forget about the grams. The question is can you properly distribute a less than a full basket. I guess your answer is no.

[malachi]

No, actually, that is untrue.

If you look back through the thread you'll note that I gave some instructions for how to downdose in a larger basket.

If you handle your dosing correctly and then handle your distribution correctly, it's not a problem.

Wait... I'll be right back with notes on how low I can go in a ridged basket before I run into distribution troubles just to make sure.

[HB]

Wait... I'll be right back with notes on how low I can go...

Another HB first! Realtime down-dosing! (*sorry* )

[malachi]

OK.

First - a clarification or two...

1) Just because most people dose by volume doesn't mean it is impossible to dose by weight, just that dosing by volume is more reliable, predictable and easier.

2) While it is possible to downdose in a LM ridged double basket, it's not easy.

15 grams isn't hard at all.
14 grams is a serious challenge.
Below 14 grams requires a 57mm tamper.
Dosing below 15 grams with any degree of consistency is VERY hard.

And...
here is the simple way to dose light (or down dose) with a standard grinder and a LM ridged double basket:

1) grind coarse, tamp hard.
2) stockfleths' for distribution.
3) dose more than the target to give yourself some room to play with (you'll brush the remainder off).
4) use a 57mm tamper.
5) make sure you rotate the portafilter (slowly and gently) while dosing.
6) flick the doser fast.
7) distribute initially without pressure at all - just fill in gaps.
8) try to apply as little pressure at all when distributing - even at the finish.


final note - i think you might be getting fooled when comparing grinders. are you weighing your dose after you've dosed and distributed? if you're dosing by weight, that's the weight that matters.