I'm overdosing. Who knew!? - Page 2

#11: Post by HB » January 13th, 2008, 11:33 am

Alchemist wrote:Might the grinder used be causing a denser pack?

The grinder certainly can make a difference. From Mazzer Mini E or Cimbali Max Hybrid:

HB wrote:It depends on the coffee beans, grind setting, grinder, and of course the basket you're using. Just tried dosing on three grinders in a standard Faema style basket:
Mazzer Mini: 16.3 grams
Mazzer Mini Electronic: 18.0 grams
Le'Lit PL53: 13.9 grams
The Mini E has a grid on the exit chute to help meter out grounds in a more orderly fashion, but it also compresses the grounds, hence its higher weight. The PL53 has noticeably more fluffy grounds than the other two.

Three grinders dosed level into the same basket yielded a range of four grams...

Alchemist wrote:All these fancy ass techniques to get the right low dose, when what I came away with from Fox's discussion was it was the simplicity of what he observed that made it work. Dose, sweep, tamp, pull.

Ken did mention no fuss preparation, however I've found that a bit of extra attention improves upon the no fuss approach. Not all will agree the extra effort is justified. In any case, Ken's central theme, as I understand it, is that updosing has been advocated for years to the detriment of new home baristas because it increases the likelihood of extraction problems. I agree with him that dosing around the manufacturer-recommended 14 grams does reduce the risk of channeling in many cases. Some may still prefer the taste profile of higher doses and they may need to employ extra "fancy ass" techniques to avoid channeling.

#12: Post by **Alchemist** » January 13th, 2008, 12:08 pm

HB wrote: Some may still prefer the taste profile of higher doses and they may need to employ extra "fancy ass" techniques to avoid channeling.

Why do I have a feeling that phrase is going to follow me around a while now?

Ah well, I don't object to a little extra attention as you say. I would even go so far to say that is "just good technique".

My main point was consider the grinder. Maybe if I had a "problem" grinder I would consider extra techniques. As it is, I get the luxury of a very carefree appearance in my shot building.

#13: Post by **malachi** » January 13th, 2008, 1:52 pm

There is a difference between overdosing and updosing.

Overdosing is dosing too much (for a specific combination of coffee, machine and desired flavour).
Updosing is deliberately dosing more than the traditional weight (for a specific basket and machine).

Do not confuse the two.

#14: Post by **malachi** » January 13th, 2008, 1:56 pm

Also... keep in mind that 14g is a number based on a specific coffee and basket (Illy, Faema double I believe).

The ridged double LM basket (for example) if dosed to a tamp level right above the ridge (max with a 58mm tamper) using the Ecco Reserve espresso yields a dose weight of between 16 and 18 grams (depending on age of beans) in my experience. This dose (with either an LM or a E61 group) doesn't show any sign of contact with the dispersion screen during brewing.

January 13th, 2008, 2:40 pm

At my grind, 18g in an LM basket in the Vibiemme e61 will definitely be hard up against the screen.

#16: Post by **Ken Fox** » January 13th, 2008, 2:47 pm

malachi wrote:There is a difference between overdosing and updosing.

Overdosing is dosing too much (for a specific combination of coffee, machine and desired flavour).
Updosing is deliberately dosing more than the traditional weight (for a specific basket and machine).

Do not confuse the two.

The thread I started with the word "overdosing" in the title used the word "overdosing" to represent my theory/belief that we are using too much coffee in our espresso preparation and as a result causing problems for our equipment and producing an unbalanced beverage. I don't think it is a "real" term in the sense that one can apply it to espresso preparation in the way one might use "updosing." For better or worse, "updosing" is a real term used by some in the cafe business. "Overdosing" is probably only accurately used in relationship to drug addicts.

For me, basically all updosing produces shots I find "overdone." But that is just my opinion. There are many "overdone" wines and other products I choose not to buy, either, but to each his own.

ken

#17: Post by **malachi** » January 13th, 2008, 2:55 pm

cafeIKE wrote:At my grind, 18g in an LM basket in the Vibiemme e61 will definitely be hard up against the screen.

Depends on grind, grinder, dosing/distribution and coffee.
As an example... I can easily dose more than 20grams of Hairbender in an LM ridged double using a Robur...

January 13th, 2008, 3:18 pm

So true. If someone gets used to what a particular coffee looks and feels like in a basket to equal a certain weight, that volume can translate to a significantly different weight when using another coffee / blend. And, that is with the other variables mentioned being equal.

#19: Post by **CoffeeOwl** » January 13th, 2008, 3:40 pm

Maybe a little lengthy and the extraction is almost invisible (forgive me - it was winter evening) - my first ever video of my coffee routine - if I can encourage my friends to buy cams I will have plenty of videos soon... everybody loves you when your coffee's good

«missing video»

#20: Post by **RapidCoffee** » January 13th, 2008, 5:09 pm

malachi wrote:There is a difference between overdosing and updosing.

Overdosing is dosing too much (for a specific combination of coffee, machine and desired flavour).
Updosing is deliberately dosing more than the traditional weight (for a specific basket and machine).

Do not confuse the two.

The same distinction has occurred to me. Here are some thoughts on dosing nomenclature (which I'm sure will not go unchallenged

). To keep things simple, I'm ignoring differences between coffees, grinders, and several espresso machine-related factors.

Correct dosing depends not only on the basket, but also on the grouphead. For example, a shower screen that extends downwards into the basket will limit the headspace and impact upon the correct dose. To distinguish between basket-related and grouphead-related dose factors, I'd like to suggest the following nomenclature.

Each basket appears to have a "preferred" dose range, which is obtained by filling the basket with grinds and leveling to the top rim. Anything significantly less than this (e.g., leveling the grounds below the rim) qualifies as downdosing. Any technique that packs significantly more coffee in the basket (by tapping, mid-fill tamping, or compressing the grounds on the basket surface prior to tamping) is updosing.

Overdosing occurs when the tamped grinds hit the shower screen as you lock in, leading to channeling. Underdosing is perhaps best described as a dose that is too small to produce a decent extraction. Underdosing and overdosing produce bad pours due to improper flow through the puck, characterized by taste deficiencies (overextraction or underextraction).

In general, underdosing and overdosing are terms we should reserve for incorrect dosing, defined by the grouphead geometry as well as the basket. Normal dosing, downdosing, updosing - these reflect dosing choices, not necessarily right or wrong.

For example, on my Vetrano I typically use a ridgeless "LM" double basket that favors doses of 16-18g with my Mazzer SJ grinder. A 14g downdose requires leveling below the rim of the basket, and a 20g updose requires compression of the grinds. On my equipment, I'd characterize doses much below 14g as underdosing, and doses much over 20g as overdosing.

On a side note, I'd like to thank Ken Fox for initiating recent discussions on dosing. We may not necessarily agree on "correct" dosing, but it was high time for more attention to be focussed on this critical espresso parameter.