Making latte - milk first or espresso first? - Page 3

#21: Post by **Anvan** » June 14th, 2012, 12:25 am

Another "Wow!" from here on the 170F number. It's pretty universally held that most milk breaks down over 160 and cannot hold good texture much past that point. In fact, I'm told by pro baristas here that the local cafe favorite brand in Portland (Sunshine) is even less forgiving and one shouldn't take it north of 150F.

Solution? The cup, even if moderately warm, can cool the drink down quite a bit. Fortunately, you can turn that around and make the thermal mass work for you if you heat the cup beforehand with very hot water. That way you don't need to overheat the milk just to compensate for heat transfer loss to the crockery.

#22: Post by **nikp81** » June 14th, 2012, 1:17 am

When i am making cappuccino the temperature of the milk is not exceed 65c ..in 72c the milk taste starts to change and i dont like it..
After 73 c milk's proteins starts to destroy..

#23: Post by **entropyembrace** » June 14th, 2012, 2:42 am

Doesn't your Pavoni get way too hot from a warming flush plus milk steaming? If I did that on mine my group head would be well over 100°C when I went to pull my shot and the espresso would be horribly bitter.

#24: Post by **kkillebrew** » June 14th, 2012, 6:28 pm

nikp81 wrote:When i am making cappuccino the temperature of the milk is not exceed 65c ..in 72c the milk taste starts to change and i dont like it..
After 73 c milk's proteins starts to destroy..

I don't doubt the science here, and I'm sure you guys are right about the milk starting to degrade at 165. I am aware of this but I don't notice much difference (if any) in taste between 160 and 170. I do notice the consistency of the milk breaks down and for latte art 155 or 160 creates the best texture, no doubt.

I'll start doing 160 and see if I think the general taste of the drinks improves.

#25: Post by **kkillebrew** » June 14th, 2012, 6:47 pm

entropyembrace wrote:Doesn't your Pavoni get way too hot from a warming flush plus milk steaming? If I did that on mine my group head would be well over 100°C when I went to pull my shot and the espresso would be horribly bitter.

The highest mine gets is about f203 and that is after an hour of more of being left on. Generally my water temp is about 196 to 198 when I pull. I have found that the Pavoni Pro is more stable than the Millennium Europiccola or the pre-millennium Europiccola in this regard, but 100c is too high.

If a Pavoni gets to f212/100c after a steaming and group flush I would look for tiny steam leaks that are causing the pressure to drop and triggering the heating element to kick on to raise the pressure, causing excessive heat. This is likely to be the fault of the pressure relief valve, or the boiler gasket, but could be anywhere there is a seal. The leak may not be noticeable at all but still causing problems. A tell tale sign of a slight boiler steam leak, as I have just learned, is rust forming underneath the bottom.

#26: Post by **entropyembrace** » June 15th, 2012, 1:05 pm

that explains it...my europiccola is old enough that it does not have a pressurestat...so the heating element is on all the time.

#27: Post by **Kim** » July 1st, 2012, 5:36 pm

I totally disagree with with pretty much all the posts on this subject.
The only practical way to do it is to steam milk just after you have started the shot.
That way the espresso and milk is done at the same time.
I steam my milk to 55-65C that way its silky smooth and has just the right thickness for latte art.
I work mostly on La Marzoccos, but also on Faema and Synesso - the approach is the same.

#28: Post by HB » July 1st, 2012, 7:06 pm

Most of the posters are referring to single boiler espresso machines, i.e., one has to deal with the boiler transitioning from brew to steam temperature. Obviously this limitation doesn't apply to espresso machines that can brew/steam at the same time.

#29: Post by **Maxwell Mooney** » July 3rd, 2012, 4:42 am

I have a Cuisinart and I steam first, pull the shot second. If I don't do a long cooling flush (6-10 seconds) there is usually a lot of built up steam and heat, but after that the temperature of my machine stabilizes and pulls a great shot.

I like to pull my shots second because the crema is stronger, so I get better texture and color contrast for my latté art.

Excited to upgrade so I can steam and pull shots at the same time!

#30: Post by **jedovaty** » July 3rd, 2012, 10:13 am

HB wrote:Obviously this limitation doesn't apply to espresso machines that can brew/steam at the same time.

Ahh.. but what about separate machines?

For a little humor, when I first got into this, I'd tried pulling a shot with the mypressi Twist and steaming on my bellman stovetop at the same time. Tried it both spanning the width of the kitchen (felt like a superhero) and maneuvering around limited space on the stove itself (resulted in a few burns). It's a bit hairy and can be done, however, because the bellman takes so long to steam milk, it's not worth the exercise and I just pull my shot first into the preheated cup, then cover with a saucer while steaming milk.

The alternative is to employ two people for the task in such a situation: the gf and I have it down so when she wraps up the steaming, I've got both shots pulled.