Order of Importance: Coffee, Grinder, Espresso Machine... and Barista? - Page 2
- cafeIKE
- Posts: 4704
- Joined: 18 years ago
Had any espresso bar [your choice here] lately? Unless the restaurant specializes in coffee, never expect a decent cup. Coffee drinkers are seat occupiers. Staff turn over is no excuse. The management is where the problem originates.Marshall wrote:Had any restaurant espresso lately?
Ian's Coffee Stuff
http://www.ieLogical.com/coffee
http://www.ieLogical.com/coffee
- tekomino (original poster)
- Posts: 1105
- Joined: 14 years ago
Yep, it is all about process and procedure. Once you have developed those and once coffee is dialed in, monkey with scale can pull very good shotscafeIKE wrote:The management is where the problem originates.
The thing is most of the "voodoo" is about getting the sub-par equipment to work right. Grinder stinks, machine stinks and people develop complex techniques to work around these problems. But if you have fresh good coffee, good grinder and machine, it is really not that hard.
- shawndo
- Posts: 1013
- Joined: 14 years ago
- Coffee
- Grinder
- Espresso Machine
- Barista
All are obviously important and required. I think in deciding what is important, you are trying to figure what can be eliminated from the equation, or at least minimized. I don't think any can. I think it's really about how easy it is to improve each of the elements.
With little time in research and lots of money, you can stock the best beans, grinders and machines.
Improving the barista is more about a time investment, which could be considered much more expensive and difficult than the others.
- Grinder
- Espresso Machine
- Barista
All are obviously important and required. I think in deciding what is important, you are trying to figure what can be eliminated from the equation, or at least minimized. I don't think any can. I think it's really about how easy it is to improve each of the elements.
With little time in research and lots of money, you can stock the best beans, grinders and machines.
Improving the barista is more about a time investment, which could be considered much more expensive and difficult than the others.
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
- TrlstanC
- Posts: 505
- Joined: 16 years ago
I would definitely rank Coffee as #1 simply because if it's not there you've just got hot water, and if you've got bad beans you're not going to get anything good out of them. I think most people would agree that the grinder is more important than the machine (I'd take a krupps and a titan grinder over a whirly blade and anything). Where does the barista fall then, more of less important than the equipment?
1. Without a barista, you could still use a superauto and get something drinkable (in the same way that without a baker you can still make brownies from a box). I've never tried espresso made from good coffee from a superauto, so I'm not sure how good it could be, but I'd guess the best we could say about superautos is that the espresso would be consistent.
2. A good barista with bad equipment is probably doomed to being inconsistent, although there's always the chance that some of the shots would be good, and the better the barista the better the average shot will probably be.
Where you end up putting the Barista in the rankings will probably come down to how much you value consistency. Personally I'd rather have 1 great shot a week and dump the rest down the sink than drink mediocre espresso everyday.
1. Without a barista, you could still use a superauto and get something drinkable (in the same way that without a baker you can still make brownies from a box). I've never tried espresso made from good coffee from a superauto, so I'm not sure how good it could be, but I'd guess the best we could say about superautos is that the espresso would be consistent.
2. A good barista with bad equipment is probably doomed to being inconsistent, although there's always the chance that some of the shots would be good, and the better the barista the better the average shot will probably be.
Where you end up putting the Barista in the rankings will probably come down to how much you value consistency. Personally I'd rather have 1 great shot a week and dump the rest down the sink than drink mediocre espresso everyday.
- lsjms
- Posts: 144
- Joined: 14 years ago
Good coffee does not automatically make good espresso.
A monkey with a scale is not a barista. If not the barista who chooses the coffee?
The grinder is a non issue as long as it is an actual espresso grinder, what the monkey does with the grinder is far more important.
The 4m's are a load of bs, no single item is more or less essential than another. Exceptional results come from a harmonic relationship between all 4, not from a Robur and a Krupps
A monkey with a scale is not a barista. If not the barista who chooses the coffee?
The grinder is a non issue as long as it is an actual espresso grinder, what the monkey does with the grinder is far more important.
The 4m's are a load of bs, no single item is more or less essential than another. Exceptional results come from a harmonic relationship between all 4, not from a Robur and a Krupps
LMWDP #277
- jfrescki
- Posts: 625
- Joined: 14 years ago
Off topic, but I had dinner at Lupa in NY (which is one of the Mario Batali/Joe Bastianich restaurants) a few months back, and ordered coffee. I got an Americano that was awesome. So good, I should have gotten an espresso to check it out. Absolutely the best I've had out in a long time........Oh, the food was good too.cafeIKE wrote:Had any espresso bar [your choice here] lately? Unless the restaurant specializes in coffee, never expect a decent cup. Coffee drinkers are seat occupiers. Staff turn over is no excuse. The management is where the problem originates.
Write to your Congressman. Even if he can’t read, write to him.
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- Marshall
- Posts: 3444
- Joined: 19 years ago
My point, exactly. Unless the restaurant makes espresso preparation a priority and has the baristas (whether waiter or bar staff) well trained, they will make poor espresso out of even the best beans. It's always a great pleasure when both great beans and careful preparation combine to produce a great cup, but sadly rare. There are hopeful signs, though, such as the NYC event last year. http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/illy-caffe/46924/cafeIKE wrote:Had any espresso bar [your choice here] lately? Unless the restaurant specializes in coffee, never expect a decent cup. Coffee drinkers are seat occupiers. Staff turn over is no excuse. The management is where the problem originates.
Marshall
Los Angeles
Los Angeles
- Psyd
- Posts: 2082
- Joined: 18 years ago
It's like asking which of the wheels on your car is most important to getting you to work. The driven wheels? The steering ones? The left? The right?
They're all important. You're not getting decent coffee if any of the four are missing.
That said, I think that the machine (and I've said this a lot) is anything that delivers the proper temp at the proper pressure.
They're all important. You're not getting decent coffee if any of the four are missing.
That said, I think that the machine (and I've said this a lot) is anything that delivers the proper temp at the proper pressure.
Espresso Sniper
One Shot, One Kill
LMWDP #175
One Shot, One Kill
LMWDP #175
- RapidCoffee
- Team HB
- Posts: 4994
- Joined: 18 years ago
+1. When all four conditions are essential for good espresso, arguing over which is more important is a fruitless enterprise.Psyd wrote:It's like asking which of the wheels on your car is most important to getting you to work. The driven wheels? The steering ones? The left? The right?
They're all important. You're not getting decent coffee if any of the four are missing.
John