Kidney function and caffeine clearance - if you know your genotype - Page 4

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.
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baldheadracing (original poster)
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#31: Post by baldheadracing (original poster) »

jpender wrote:Thanks for the warning. Although it wouldn't surprise me that if one looked carefully at the evidence it would turn out that meat really isn't all that great for human health or the environment, never mind the question of animal cruelty.

I'm more interested in coffee. Should I have that third cup?
We have to figure out what a "cup" is first :D.

BTW, for blueberries, annoyingly, wild or organic is the way to go. There is now heavy pesticide use in farm-grown strawberries and blueberries due in part to spotted wing drosophila eggs being found in these fruits throughout North America since the flies showed up in 2008. (There is supposedly nothing wrong with eating drosophila eggs/larvae, just that people freak out when the larvae come out. The flies are everywhere now, but show up in strawberries/blueberries because the larvae crawl out when the fruit is washed. That makes for good click-bait videos and articles.)
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

Capuchin Monk
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#32: Post by Capuchin Monk »

baldheadracing wrote:There is now heavy pesticide use in farm-grown strawberries and blueberries due in part to spotted wing drosophila eggs being found in these fruits throughout North America since the flies showed up in 2008. (There is supposedly nothing wrong with eating drosophila eggs/larvae, just that people freak out when the larvae come out. The flies are everywhere now, but show up in strawberries/blueberries because the larvae crawl out when the fruit is washed. That makes for good click-bait videos and articles.)
Insects are the latest fad now in North America. https://phys.org/news/2020-07-trend-foo ... sects.html

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AZRich
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#33: Post by AZRich »

Capuchin Monk wrote:Do you get jitters from drinking more than usual, say 2 cups or more of coffee in a hour?
No - I used to make 2 8oz aeropress coffee's 1 after another when I got up at 6am with no bad side effects, and a third usually a couple hours later and no jitters. But, I am working on a CBT-I program for insomnia I've had for years, so it was time to try no/low caffeine.

jpender
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#34: Post by jpender »

baldheadracing wrote:We have to figure out what a "cup" is first :D.
It is annoying that so often studies use "cup" as a metric. In my case it's usually 16-20g of beans, which is probably something around 3g of dissolved solids, give or take. Caffeine? Maybe 150mg? Who knows.

I probably shouldn't have a third cup just based on the notion of moderation. A little coffee, a little meat, a little sugar, a little alcohol, whatever. But too much tends to be a mistake, in general. It would be nice to quantify it though.

baldheadracing wrote:BTW, for blueberries, annoyingly, wild or organic is the way to go. There is now heavy pesticide use in farm-grown strawberries and blueberries due in part to spotted wing drosophila eggs being found in these fruits throughout North America since the flies showed up in 2008.
Interesting. I don't place too much emphasis on organic vs non-organic most of the time but I will in this case. Where we buy our blueberries they're all labeled organic anyway. The tricky part is freshness. I'm always looking for domestic hoping that means they were picked more recently. Sometimes they come from Peru. How long ago? Soft blueberries just aren't my thing. I also suspect they mess with my gut.

I haven't noticed any bugs.

Pressino
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#35: Post by Pressino »

baldheadracing wrote:Caffeine doesn't work like alcohol. False analogy.
True enough, as caffeine is a stimulant and alcohol is a depressant. However, both agents can induce a physical and psychogical abstinence syndrome (i.e. withdrawal). One who is a rapid alcohol metabolizer will indeed "sober up" quicker than one who is a slow metabolizer. He will also begin to experience withdrawal symptoms sooner than a slow metabolizer after he stops drinking.

The same differences apply to those who consume caffeine, which is to say that in a rapid caffeine metabolizer caffeine will not only lose its pharmacologic effects (mainly increased adrenergic effects) sooner than in a slow metabolizer, but the rapid metabolizer will experience caffeine withdrawal effects (mainly headache and feeling generally cranky) sooner than a slow metabolizer.

The caveats discussed in that comprehensive video presentation are definitely valid, though several still need to be confirmed. What I just said about rapid and slow metabolizers of drugs that induce tolerance and dependance (and hence an abstinence syndrome--like caffeine and alcohol) is unequivocally true, at least for all such drugs we currently know of.

jpender
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#36: Post by jpender »

FWIW alcohol has both stimulant and depressant effects. And in that video the narrator mentioned that in one paper it was found that coffee makes some people sleepy!

I think the lack of correlation between metabolizing rate and jitters is largely a matter of tolerance.

When I first started drinking coffee in my 20s I'd get super buzzed and even get heart palpitations from just one cup. Now I do three double shots of espresso and barely notice the effect. Something changed in me and I doubt it was my genome.

Alcohol use also results in tolerance but there's really no need for an analogy, is there?

Pressino
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#37: Post by Pressino »

jpender wrote:FWIW alcohol has both stimulant and depressant effects. And in that video the narrator mentioned that in one paper it was found that coffee makes some people sleepy!...

...Alcohol use also results in tolerance but there's really no need for an analogy, is there?
Alcohol is classified pharmacologically as depressant and depresses central nervous system (CNS) function. It is not a stimulant, though in some people it has a disinhibiting effect...think of "aggressive and violent" versus "happy and peaceful" drunks. Disinhibition is not the same as stimulation. Benzodiazepines can have a similar disinhibiting effect, but they are, like alcohol, classed as depressant drugs.

Caffeine is classified pharmacologically as a CNS stimulant. It may "relax" some people and make them feel sleepy, but that would be considered a "paradoxical effect." Such paradoxical effects are usually due to some atypical variation in the individual's nervous system wiring and/or function. A classic example is the paradoxical effect certain drugs in people with ADHD, where psychostimulants, like amphetamines, produce a CNS depressant effect on hyperactivity. People with ADHD also often respond to depressants, like phenobarbital, as if they were stimulants.

Thus, caffeine making some people sleepy would be considered a paradoxical effect. Not saying that people who feel calmed by coffee have ADHD. As Freud is reputed to have said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.... :)

In my case, when I'm getting irritable and edgy from coffee withdrawal, a cup of nice strong coffee calms me down.

jpender
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#38: Post by jpender »

Yes, ethanol is classified as a depressant. But there are stimulant effect nonetheless both initially and much later on after most of it has been metabolized. I don't know if it's the acetaldehyde that's still being cleared or what but it's a common enough experience to fall asleep due to a little too much wine and then wake up later in the night with one's mind buzzing, unable to sleep.

As for tolerance, it would interesting to know how much is due to an increase in metabolic efficiency versus desensitized receptors. I think alcoholics, at least before they compromise their livers, get really good at metabolizing alcohol but also are less sensitive to it. Maybe that's also true with caffeine and regular coffee drinkers?

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