erik82 wrote:Besides that it can also be that my Strietman is better then the Micra and thus also the Bianca. It does have a saturated group and does pressure profiling. I'd like to test the Strietman next to a Micra sometime to see how it turns out as I'm really interested in the Micra.

Yeah, this is what I think happened. I'd want to hear from a few experienced folks doing a head to head with Streitman and Micra. I have to believe that complete control with the lever will produce superior results compared to the automated saturation from the Micra.

That said, the Micra isn't targeting the espresso aficionado - it's targeting the home user who wants consistent, reliable, good to great results with mostly medium and dark roasts, who more often than not is making a milk based drink.

You want complete control, get a Decent or something with more options.

Wonder if the micra is completely revitalizing anyone else's excitement for espresso. I haven't been this pumped since ordering my Silvia 20 years ago - big difference is that I don't have to agonize over spending a bit of cash. I had my second-hand Elektra at work, but I've mostly transitioned to wfh since the pandemic started, and I can't really fit Elektra in our current house.

Bought a niche yesterday and am planning to have that and my major (with a new doserless kit and hopefully with ssp burrs) to use as the beans dictate.

Can't until the lmlu arrives! Thanks for all the posts in the meantime.

I have to agree with Erik here using so fresh light roast is simply not a good idea, I never, like never gotten a light that was all that enjoyable after only 3 days rest. Majority needs 2 weeke at the bare minimum and most of these are better after 3 weeks! I had light that first was great after 4-6 weeks rest.

Erik The Streitman is an amazing machine that delivers fantastic espresso, so I'm not overly shocked you find it better then a flow controlled E-61... Even my flair58 frankly outperforms these type of E61 every timed I tried it, I tried saturated and profiling machines such as Decent and I honestly don't think these do any better either from a pure quality stand point, these are mostly just easier to get to a certain quality and shot to shot, but I never gotten a shot from one where I thought it was impossible not to equal or better with a lever. Personally getting such would be for ease of use and milk based not because I anticipate these actually will do a higher quality because I frankly not once experienced that.

But good performance levers I honestly think can do extremely high quality espresso. I don't think the Streitman is only down to saturated but also it's profiling combination that make it so good.

That said I still consider getting the Micra when I don't bother with manual pulling shots.

erik82 wrote:When doing a proper experiment you need to set the parameters right and that should mean 2-3 weeks old light to very light roasts because there's no value in using 3 days old light to very light roasts.

Sigh, not science, but something the rules prohibit may from characterizing. Nevertheless I shall.

A two to three week old very light roast has staled to the point where it is somewhat less aromatic than a week old medium roast. and has a bready rather than caramel background taste.

This may be the holy grail for posters talking down from the third wave peaks; but to me, and more importantly, absolutely everyone I've ever cupped with in person, and this is somewhere between 50 and 100 people, these coffees are mostly regarded as undrinkable when fresh to flat and boring when staled. In the five day window where they are balanced, they are mostly rated as shrugs. There are brilliant 95 point exceptions, but they are rarer than the standouts from more developed roasts.

This data set often leaves me wondering whether the third wave is entirely imaginary and on line. Instead, I'm guessing that there is a new kind of coffee appreciation brewing. The posters actually enjoy coffee that I would characterize as a mug of lukewarm Postum mixed with Sprite, consumed along with the vapors from an Yrgacheffe or Geisha flavored joss stick. Not really my cup of baked roast beverage.

malling wrote:I have to agree with Erik here using so fresh light roast is simply not a good idea, I never, like never gotten a light that was all that enjoyable after only 3 days rest. Majority needs 2 weeke at the bare minimum and most of these are better after 3 weeks! I had light that first was great after 4-6 weeks rest.

Erik The Streitman is an amazing machine that delivers fantastic espresso, so I'm not overly shocked you find it better then a flow controlled E-61... Even my flair58 frankly outperforms these type of E61 every timed I tried it, I tried saturated and profiling machines such as Decent and I honestly don't think these do any better either from a pure quality stand point, these are mostly just easier to get to a certain quality and shot to shot, but I never gotten a shot from one where I thought it was impossible not to equal or better with a lever. Personally getting such would be for ease of use and milk based not because I anticipate these actually will do a higher quality because I frankly not once experienced that.

But good performance levers I honestly think can do extremely high quality espresso. I don't think the Streitman is only down to saturated but also it's profiling combination that make it so good.

That said I still consider getting the Micra when I don't bother with manual pulling shots.

Perhaps I am missing something here but what is is that makes flair58 outperform a flow controlled E61 group: does it have better thermal stability ? My guess would be no (but maybe I am wrong). Does it have better profiling capabilities ? If yes, why ?

another_jim wrote:Sigh, not science, but something the rules prohibit may from characterizing. Nevertheless I shall.

A two to three week old very light roast has staled to the point where it is somewhat less aromatic than a week old medium roast. and has a bready rather than caramel background taste.

This may be the holy grail for posters talking down from the third wave peaks; but to me, and more importantly, absolutely everyone I've ever cupped with in person, and this is somewhere between 50 and 100 people, these coffees are mostly regarded as undrinkable when fresh to flat and boring when staled. In the five day window where they are balanced, they are mostly rated as shrugs. There are brilliant 95 point exceptions, but they are rarer than the standouts from more developed roasts.

This data set often leaves me wondering whether the third wave is entirely imaginary and on line. Instead, I'm guessing that there is a new kind of coffee appreciation brewing. The posters actually enjoy coffee that I would characterize as a mug of lukewarm Postum mixed with Sprite, consumed along with the vapors from an Yrgacheffe or Geisha flavored joss stick. Not really my cup of baked roast beverage.

It's just what you call third wave because the term Italian espresso is also very broad. Before we had dark or somewhat less dark roasts and now we also have lighter to crazy light roasts. I tend to not enjoy those ultra light barely developed roasts and using really light filter roasts for espresso. And in that I agree that they just don't taste great when they're roasted that light.

When I'm talking about light roasts it's a light roast for espresso like Tim Wendelboe or La Cabra which is something different then what you're referring to. And these also need around 2-3 weeks and are drinkable. And those sour lovers you're referring to call that medium where in reality it's just a very light espresso roast. So tasting something espresso light after 3 days rest (so not filter light) the taste is muted and when comparing results you don't want a muted tasting coffee as that'll never give good results looking at it from a scientific standpoint.

There should be some other term then third wave because it's generalizing everything that's not dark roasts so we're kind of putting 80% of all speciality coffee in one categorie where in reality it ranges from medium to underdeveloped. Also what is a light roasts should be put in regard to what you're doing with it. Calling a filter roast medium for espresso will scew all coffees for espresso as dark which is just plain stupid because then your system of grading coffees is wrong. You go from dark to light espresso roast, dark to light filter roast or just underdeveloped white coffee. Just my opinion on the system as it is now because it's losing any value.

nick_111 wrote:Perhaps I am missing something here but what is is that makes flair58 outperform a flow controlled E61 group: does it have better thermal stability ? My guess would be no (but maybe I am wrong). Does it have better profiling capabilities ? If yes, why ?

No it doesn't, but it's decently stable if you do a good routine on it, but not saturated stable and it doesn't have dropping temperatures like normal levers either. Mainly I think it is because it's a lever it dos better. It's not just the flair58 I experience this with it's most levers of a certain quality I experience it with, Flair58 just happens to be extremely forgiving so I frankly never had one sink shot on it. I find it also more easier repeatable, more controllable then that "paddle" on the E61 that I find less accurate and more fiddly.

E61 are fine don't get me wrong but there better more modern groups out there, LM, Kvdw among others are clearly better for light roast if everything else is equal. E61 for me always tend to muddy and blend the shot a bit not a huge issue with more darker roast but with very light it's noticeable and that tendency doesn't go away no matter how much bells and whistles it has. Elektra's version I actually think did better and cartridge heated version of e61 dos better too. If one drink as light as I prefer, I don't think E61 is the best group one could get, but it's acceptable on a budget or if you want a 58mm pump machine with profiling capabilities on a more modest budget.

With a Micra close enough in price now, I would never consider it. LM groups are just better for flat 6 bar or 9bar shots with fully achieved saturation PI with my roast preferences, some Will however prefer the bells and whistles but as I already can do the profiling I want with my lever, I don't mind the flat bar nature especially if I can mod it later on with a flow kit.

erik82 wrote: ... When I'm talking about light roasts it's a light roast for espresso like Tim Wendelboe or La Cabra which is something different then what you're referring to.

I've had a few of Wendelboe's roasts, although not La Cabra. They were OK to good, workman-like light roasts of slightly above average coffees, nothing more. I much preferred them after ten days than after three weeks.

About the acidity of very light roasts is just as mixed as darker roasts. Kenyas are very acidic no matter how you roast them. A good Kenya is acidic and ripe, so that the sweetness and acidity are balanced. Moreover the acidity carries a host of aromas. You can roast it light or medium, and that simply varies the background flavors from (in the case of Kenya) Maillard-umami to caramel-spice cake.

But Wendelboe doesn't make decisions like that. He has a branded taste of medium acidic bready coffee. When the beans he has aren;lt all that great, like the sample I got, producing this branded taste requires baking the coffee to reduce the acidity so thaty it is still balanced by the lacking sweetness. The result is forgettable, postum-sprite, that is a bready tasting coffee with non-descript and and inobjectionable acidity.

I roast most of my coffee myself. When I get a bean like the one I got from Wendelboee, I throw it away. Life is too short for me to waste my time trying to get a good roast out of a nondescript coffee. This is no hit on Wendelboe. There are no commercial roasters who have only ripe and tasty coffees, they are not be able to cover their demand with only such coffees. My quarrel is with posts regrad the thrid wave brand taste as more important than the coffee.

Bottom line: Starbucks created a brand by incinerating average coffees. Third wave roasters are creating a brand by baking, rather than roasting, average coffees. Whether you darkly incinerate or lightly bake coffee doesn't matter, neither is roasting coffee. Both are just techniques for creating branded tastes someone with three hours worth of tasting experience can instantly recognize and "appreciate."

Getting back to the topic of reviewing machines. The question of "how does it do for baked coffee?" is not high on my list of things to find out. None of my blind taste tests used baked coffee; they were all my own roasts.

Can somebody tell me a bit more on power/energy consumption? It depends obviously on how you use it, how many shots etc. But let's say my consumption would be to let it run in the morning, and power off at around lunch, because I only really drink coffee in the morning. 4-5 shots and 1 latte.

It would be my first machine, maybe a bit excessive, but I'm telling myself I will save a lot on coffees to go

If you just get the normal on the shelf then it surely can be a bland experience, especially if you just randomly buy it, you need to find out how old the harvest it to have any sort of luck with these roaster or it gets rather generic. Personally I normal go after the smaller, higer graded lots In limited supply, not what they have year round unless it hits its window, as that is obviously bound to get very bland espeat the end of its shelf period. But like any roasters they need to run a business so can't obviously only have peak coffee and coffees of highest grade on the shelf, especially as they also have to make a profit and be able to offer it at a price customers are willing to pay.

It's not exactly the coffee we see At competition and with good reasons, because these are rarely all that exciting. Coffee collective is a prime example of bland boring coffee and frankly only worth bothering with when they get a limited coffee on the shelf the same goes for Wendelboe.

But really no matter where you buy you coffee this is the reality it doesn't matter what roast style these do being light or dark the reality is the same doesn't really matter what roaster it is, where these are located and what name they have none offer just high quality coffees, it's +90% average coffee. Most home roasters probably also have no access to highest grated coffee but often can only roast the same less impressive coffee unless these have contact inside the coffee industry.

I tried enough of these extremely limited, high scoring coffees and have yet to find them at their best 3 days past roast, but each to their own.

Also can't even remember the last time I got a good Kenyan, even the very rare, high grated ones I paid a premium for was not what it used to be.