Flow control is one of the most important features of the espresso machine - Page 3

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Shakespeare
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#21: Post by Shakespeare »

Jeff wrote:Ask a lever-machine aficionado and you'll hear that E61-style flow management is just an ugly hack for what lever machines have been doing well for decades.

My experience agrees with both of the above posts. Light-roast espresso benefits from a controlled soak of some duration.


Slayer-style shots aren't in favor among the light-roast enthusiasts that I converse with or read experience of. Slowly infusing water into the puck means that parts of it have begin to extract long before others.
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Jeff; I love all lever machines. And personally I think them superior..... But and there is a .... But, the e61 is and was never a Hack.
Actually the Lever machine was first used in 1938, a Milan barista named Achille Gaggia.
And the approximately 20 years later the e61 group was Invented by Ernesto Valente in 1961 and used in 1961 by Faema Group.
So. the lever was only 20 years in use before the e61 group became the dominate device to offer an automatic and consistent 9 bar espresso to the masses.
Actually, the e61 group rather than a Hack, made espresso popular around the world ( for six decades) and made a lever machine an alternative for consistent espresso brewing.

Jeff : "If light roasted coffee benefits from a controlled soak of some duration"

Then I believe the Slayer is one of the front runners in pre extraction soaking.
I have a different and opposite point of view of what a a Slayer shot is and can do for light roasted coffee : It is an additional benefit to provide a point of the low-flow pressure brewing and it is allowing a finer grind and higher extraction temperature for light roasted coffee.

RyanP
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#22: Post by RyanP »

He didn't say the e61 group is a hack. He said the e61 flow control as it has been implemented since the introduction of the Bianca is a hack.
Shakespeare wrote:---------------------
Jeff; I love all lever machines. And personally I think them superior..... But and there is a .... But, the e61 is and was never a Hack.
Actually the Lever machine was first used in 1938, a Milan barista named Achille Gaggia.
And the approximately 20 years later the e61 group was Invented by Ernesto Valente in 1961 and used in 1961 by Faema Group.
So. the lever was only 20 years in use before the e61 group became the dominate device to offer an automatic and consistent 9 bar espresso to the masses.
Actually, the e61 group rather than a Hack, made espresso popular around the world ( for six decades) and made a lever machine an alternative for consistent espresso brewing.

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Shakespeare
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#23: Post by Shakespeare »

RyanP wrote:He didn't say the e61 group is a hack. He said the e61 flow control as it has been implemented since the introduction of the Bianca is a hack.
I reread it once again and I don't see that written...If I am mistaken..please show me the quote. I am not perfect.
Jeff wrote:Ask a lever-machine aficionado and you'll hear that E61-style flow management is just an ugly hack for what lever machines have been doing well for decades.

Controlled and controllable puck soak ("PI"), declining pressure profile during extraction. With a manual lever there is also the ability to compensate for a slightly "off" grind size during the shot. As there is more work done with temperature profiling, it may turn out that the descending-temperature profile that is gaining favor for light-roast espresso is another "yeah. my lever does that" thing.

My experience agrees with both of the above posts. Light-roast espresso benefits from a controlled soak of some duration. Classic espresso blends often end up with more of what I find unpleasant about them in the cup if you extend the soak. There's a continuum and a lot will depend on roast quality, not just level.

Slayer-style shots are another topic. I acknowledge that Slayer was instrumental in the creation of the concept of a flow-managed, pump-driven machine for the comparatively dark-roasted coffees that cafes were using at the time (2009-ish). Those coffees are probably still popular in cafes, but are far from the light-roast, SO coffees that are being pursued today by many enthusiasts. Slayer-style shots aren't in favor among the light-roast enthusiasts that I converse with or read experience of. Slowly infusing water into the puck means that parts of it have begin to extract long before others.

RyanP
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#24: Post by RyanP »

Shakespeare wrote:I reread it once again and I don't see that written...If I am mistaken..please show me the quote. I am not perfect.
Jeff wrote:Ask a lever-machine aficionado and you'll hear that E61-style flow management is just an ugly hack for what lever machines have been doing well for decades.
e61-style flow management is referring to the flow profiling modification that many people today use on their e61 machines.

zefkir
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#25: Post by zefkir »

I find that a bottom paper filter that negates the resistance of the basket is a much more "powerful" hack when it comes to extracting light roasts. This also allows you to grind quite a bit finer (though one should still avoid grinding overly fine to avoid the issues created by such grinds).

Bonus, you can do longer lungo-like ratios to balance out flavour profiles of such shots.

Once you get into 8% TDS at 1:3, any lungo is going to be very close in concentration to a regular espresso.

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Ursego (original poster)
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#26: Post by Ursego (original poster) »

Jeff wrote:One thing to remember is that the flow kit adds a valve, not a pressure (or flow) controller. If you're at a pressure above where you want to be, even if you completely close it, the pressure will only drop as fast as water/coffee flows through the puck. You sort of have to be predictive rather than reactive with it.
I think that makes this mod almost useless (unlike lever machines, or super-expensive electric machines with adjustable pump pressure). Perhaps I'll change my mind in time, when I have more experience.

ADDED LATER:
The automaticity had been developed pretty quickly after writing this complain, so it's not a problem at all.

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Jeff
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#27: Post by Jeff »

I think it has a lot of value.

I think it comes down to learning to use it. Do you remember the first time you tried to turn a car at speed when you were learning?

OK, I'll admit, I don't. But I think it is the same kind of thing. If you only start to turn the wheel when you are at the corner, you'll be up on the far curb, or worse.

Pixillate's write-up and video demo looks like a great place to start. (Linked on Post #17, above)

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PIXIllate
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#28: Post by PIXIllate »

Ursego wrote:I think that makes this mod almost useless (unlike lever machines, or super-expensive electric machines with adjustable pump pressure). Perhaps I'll change my mind in time, when I have more experience.

I can assure you the back to back to back to back shots I pull every morning using flow control that all run within 1-2 seconds of each other and to within 0.3g output are not useless. Nor is the 22-23%EY the flow control helps me achieve consistatly.

I mean this is the most helpful way but, what you don't understand is that you don't understand. It took me a year to fully wrap my head around extraction theory and the different stages of an extraction. How flow creates pressure which in turn effects flow and how you can manipulate flow to control pressure with something as simple as a needle valve.

I've tried to offer a demonstration of what I do along with an explanation of why I'm doing what I'm doing and where the ideas originally came from. If you spend a week working on the techniques you may be surprised with the outcome.

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Ursego (original poster)
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#29: Post by Ursego (original poster) »

Yes, guys, you are right. I need to learn before starting to cry. :mrgreen:

I found this video fragment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-QAOo8Vg5A?t=298
useful for beginners. It says how much to open the faucet to do something similar to Slayer and spring lever shots - very simple form of explanation.

By some reason, the forum engine cuts off the time portion from YouTube URL. :twisted: So, I placed the URL in CODE BB code.

PIXIllate
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#30: Post by PIXIllate »

To be frank, those techniques are not even close to ideal nor are they going to lead you to a greater understanding of how flow and pressure interact. The WLL videos do a good job explaining how to measure out flow rates at the various knob positions but seem to be over reaching as they try to explain/simplify specific profiles.

Try watching the video I posted and reading the explanation of the steps. Then try replicating it yourself for a week or so. I think you'll learn more than an oversimplified high/low approach that nets you little to none of the benifits available from a more in-depth, multi stage profile. Feel free to ask questions in that thread once you get some hands on experience. This is not something you can master by reading alone.

An Even MORE Considered Approach to E61 Flow Control (now with video)

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